The Sin Offering, with Spencer Owen - Episode 064

Carey Griffel: [00:00:00] Welcome to Genesis Marks the Spot, where we raid the ivory tower of biblical theology without ransacking our faith. My name is Carey Griffel, and in today's episode, I have with me Spencer Owen. Spencer Owen: Hey, hello again. Good to be back. Thank you so much for inviting me. Carey Griffel: Thanks for coming on again to discuss what we have been discussing and we've been trying to work through and kind of the shadows of conversations elsewhere as well. This is something we've been talking about as far as what sacrifice is and what it means. And how we can change our modern perspective into that of an ancient person's perspective. Spencer Owen: Which is not very easy. It requires a pretty big shift of mind to do. Carey Griffel: It really does. And it's not that ancient people were some sort of different person, [00:01:00] but they had different concerns. They had different culture. Even today, if you go into another country or another part of your country and you see a different culture. You're going to see things that you're not going to understand, and you're going to need explanations for that. And so, that's part of what Biblical theology is, from the way that I study it, and the way that I view Biblical theology is, how do we understand the Bible, and how do we understand the Bible's culture? Because in order to have a really solid interpretation of Scripture, It helps to understand what scripture is even saying to begin with. Spencer Owen: Oh, yeah. And that's not always self evident. I mean, I know sometimes a lot of times people kind of come out and say, all I need is just, you know, me and my Bible or, you know, my Bible and Jesus. And I appreciate the piety of that, but I also acknowledge that there's a massive cultural translation effect that we have to overcome, so. That's [00:02:00] why I appreciate what you do. Carey Griffel: Thank you. Yeah. I find it really engaging to really be able to try and work with this mental shift of getting my mind into a different space. And if I think of it that way, then it's, not about, Oh, what I've thought all along before was super wrong and I need to correct that. It's more like. What I thought before was, a lot of it was really on the right track and was probably theologically correct. But, when I go and read my Bible, then I start inserting my theologically correct idea into places where That's really not exactly what they were talking about. And if I can get to what they were exactly talking about, then I'm going to understand all of that a whole lot better. Yeah, it's not about missing out the story of the Bible entirely. It's, about [00:03:00] reading the Bible as a student. Spencer Owen: And that's what we were trying to do with the last one was to try to kind of set the table, set the tone and figure out what's the bigger picture of sacrifices in general. And how does that work connected to the wrath of God and all those kinds of things. So it's really helpful background and , I'm hoping that's going to give us some kind of sense of orientation that will then allow us to go deeper into the details and not, you know, lose the forest for the trees. So. Carey Griffel: Yeah, you know, when I was starting to really get into Leviticus in particular, and trying to understand what all of these offerings were, what was the sacrificial system for, you know, even though I was raised LDS, and so in a sense, that's like outside of Protestant Evangelicalism, a lot of the ideas that I had were very directly from Protestantism. And so I still had so much of these ideas that any Protestant churchgoer would [00:04:00] likely have, because these are the things that you're hearing in church about what the atonement is, what the atonement did, its connection to the sacrificial system. And it's like, people see Jesus and, they read their New Testament. And if they're a faithful reader of the text and they want to understand the Old Testament, because let's face it, some people don't even want to do that. But if they do, they're like, okay. We see Jesus, we see the sacrificial system in the Old Testament. Let's try and put those together and map them. And so , they try and map one onto the other. But if you're coming at it from a wrong angle, you're not getting the map kind of lined up correctly. Spencer Owen: Right. If you don't have the right map, you end up in the wrong place. Carey Griffel: And this is a very crucial point too, because , even though we can all read the Bible in faithful ways and come out with theological messages , [00:05:00] sometimes the implications of our exact theology have a really Really big impact. Spencer Owen: Yes. Yes, they do. And that's, and I mean, like I said last time I work as a counselor and so , a lot of , the stuff that I try to , work with people to help them heal from and shift their own thinking and perspective on is dealing with the impact of these kinds of perspectives that you start off from one place. You vector long enough down that path and it, it takes it to sometimes a pretty dark place. So that's why when I'm looking at these details, like this is more than just nerdery for nerdery sake for me, it's, something I want to do carefully, like, to be faithful to the text, to be faithful to the traditional interpretation of the early church, and just the community of faith in general, but then I also want to do it, like, just very sensitively, I understand it is a big shift sometimes, and e Even vectoring off of a bad path can cause a [00:06:00] lot of struggle and a lot of difficulty. And so I don't want to just leave people hanging and say, well, you know what you thought was wrong. I would rather present a picture that is a hopefully more faithful to the text and tradition and then b that It makes more sense of the overall narrative of scripture from start to finish. And you can kind of see a picture emerge out of that. That is at least I have found that is much more beautiful. Carey Griffel: And with every way of looking at scripture, you can ask the question of, does this make the entire thing make more sense? Spencer Owen: Well, that's my hope is that what we're looking at here is going to be making more sense of things. Carey Griffel: Yeah, it's always about the explanatory power of it and does it make sense in the context. Does it make sense for , the narrative and structure of the Bible as a whole? And yeah, it's, that whole [00:07:00] structural thing and we miss that so often because we just focus on this little bit, this little bit, and this little bit, whereas we need to look at the complete picture. Spencer Owen: It's tough work, but it's worth doing. Carey Griffel: Hopefully, if you're listening to this, then you find it as fun as we do. So here we are. All right, so last time we talked quite a bit about sacrifice in general, and the purposes and intent of what sacrifice was for, for the ancient person. What were some of those points that you find most necessary to bring back into reminder for this conversation? Spencer Owen: Pretty much , three big ones. The first one is just that like sacrifices are not a transaction. They're relational reciprocity. They're gifts of welcome and hospitality that maintain covenant blessing and benefit such as forgiveness, for example, but that sacrifices don't work when, the giver is under wrath is under some kind of [00:08:00] covenant breach. And that's one of the biggest reasons why, and this is really the second big takeaway, is that sacrificial worship is not wrath appeasement, it's not something that's trying to you know, satisfy a bloodthirsty God. It's, it's a situation where the worshiper gives gifts to God and then God gives back to the worshiper gifts of specifically his own life. And there's also built into that a system where there's a designated sin bearer , and that, figure in the sacrificial system is the priest who carries the burden of sin on behalf of the people. And then the very last thing that's really important to keep in mind is that atonement, which normally gets thought of as like, you know, kind of , paying God off in some way atonement is primarily cleansing, which formally sustains that kind of client-patron, suzerain-vassal relationship , and in that system of atonement, impurity is the primary frame, and sins are [00:09:00] kind of the secondary frame, where the idea there is that blood acts as like a ritual detergent, that life stuff, blood, destroys death stuff, impurity. It's not really like it's covering it over, it's just swallowing it up and destroying it. And the biggest thing in that atonement framework to keep in mind is that it's not really that the blood itself is magical and you know, that it is some kind of quasi magical substance that makes things happen like a lever, but it's really at its core, it's a life of relational fidelity is what makes atonement work, not the death of the animal. And those are the big ones that I think it's really important to summarize. Carey Griffel: I think we've said before how The death of the animal, it's not emphasized in these rituals, it's just kind of there. we tend to think of death in a different way than an ancient [00:10:00] person would have thought about it, I think. In several ways. Like, we're a bit distant from it. we have people , whose job it is to take care of our deceased. Whereas, Back in the day, that wasn't a job description. Spencer Owen: Well, that actually made you impure. Carey Griffel: And so we have this level of distance from death and for a lot of people, you know, we're not slaughtering our animals. Most of us aren't. more and more people are starting to get into farming where they would actually be doing that. But for most of us, we don't know how to do that. We don't even know what it takes to slaughter an animal, the types of knowledge that you would need to have for that to be the case. You know, I've been thinking about the Cain and Abel story and Abel being the keeper of sheep and what does that mean? And you might want to think that, you know, that just means that he could have kept sheep for [00:11:00] clothing or for other purposes. But in actuality, that's not the history of sheep domestication. You can't take wild sheep and then spin wool from it. You can felt wool, but you can't spin it. And in order to get that spun wool, you needed to first domesticate the sheep. Well, you're not going to take the sheep in and just keep them as pets in order to domesticate them. You're domesticating them because they're your food source. So, you know, it's quite interesting to even think logically through that and say, well, yeah, there is other purposes for a sheep, but the history of actual domestication shows us that they were there for food, but that's, that was their point. And so when we see the story of Cain and Abel and he's offering the sheep or he's offering from the [00:12:00] flock, we have to be thinking in terms of this fellowship meal. And the, this idea of, of sacrifice as we've brought it out. Spencer Owen: Yeah. And like we reiterated last time, I mean, that one isn't a sin offering that's offered there, but, well, and , unfortunately, a lot of times people look at, when they think of sacrifices, they just automatically they gravitate straight toward the sin offering, like , as if that's like the singular sacrifice. And that's not entirely the best way to look at it. Mostly because of, you know, the evidence we have is more than like the, the burnt offering is probably the prototypical sacrifice there. But the other thing to keep in mind too, is that like, even in the day of atonement ritual, which, you know, gets kind of an outsized importance in our minds that the day of atonement was instituted as a direct response to the Nadab and Abihu incident of Leviticus 10, where they bring strange fire in and they, die.[00:13:00] And it really should kind of make us pause a little bit and second guess and wonder if really we should be centralizing the sin offering to that degree, if it is something that was a contingent reality, it wasn't something that was there from page one of the Bible. It was something that was kind of brought in as a response later, much later to something else. So again, not trying to, in any way, sideline or erase the sin offering, just trying to Place it in its proper textual context. Carey Griffel: Right. Because when we see that offering in Genesis four, we are thinking sin offering because, Hey, look, there's sin going on. We just had sin in the garden. The word isn't used, but we're just going to say that that's the same thing. Now we have sin happening. Well, at least after the offering. So, Hmm. There's that chronological time period we might look at and say. Guess what? [00:14:00] They were offering before that God told Cain that sin was crouching at the door. So that's interesting, Spencer Owen: And once Cain is mastered by sin, God does not then demand a sacrifice in order that he keep his life. In fact, God steps in and says, I'm going to protect you. And there's very little to no indication that Cain is truly repentant in any way. Both in terms of what he says, I mean, he does say my iniquity is too great for me to bear. But in the context that sounds much, much more like he's just saying Oh. I, like I messed up, I've got it coming and, and actually what God says is like, no, actually I'm going to protect you. I'm going to keep you alive rather than, you know, demand your death. And then of course what we see then is this kind of spiraling descent from the rest of his line to Lamech and you know, everybody else that leads to the, you know, the cleansing that's required with the flood. But yeah, it's just little textual details like that are something we can just kind of skim right [00:15:00] over if we're not reading closely. And it wasn't until I really sat down and said, let me really closely read Leviticus and see exactly what it's saying about all the details and how they all work. And that's when a different picture of what the problem was, what the solution was started to emerge. Carey Griffel: Well, and we have to keep in mind that when all of these different types of offerings being spelled out in Leviticus, that's in a particular, , historical context. So, we can ask ourselves, is there a reason that suddenly we have descriptions of all of these different things where it didn't seem to be all that specific before? We have a lot of offerings in Genesis, but they're not spelled out like this. There's the burnt offering after the flood, but it's not really like suddenly, Oh, here's all of these offerings that you're supposed to do and [00:16:00] here's the different ways you do it. And we might want to ask ourselves, maybe there's something particular about the history of Israel that causes that to happen that causes that to be given to begin with Spencer Owen: well I mean I talked about church fathers in the tradition of the early church and the way they saw that was this was designed to point to Christ and I know that gets said a lot in kind of Protestant circles, but The way they meant it was that Christ is the pattern into which all the other sacrifices are a type , that Christ is the archetype, Christ is the prototype and all the other ones are types and shadows of that. And so like when we look at something like the sin offering, we should be seeing Christ, but we also need to remember that it's not like Christ said okay, now let me figure this out. What's the pattern of the sin offering and how can I fulfill it? Like, how can I fit myself into that? It goes the other way around. And this is something my friend Joshua Sherman that you've had on [00:17:00] has been really instrumental in helping me to see as well as the church fathers, that when we're going through the details of the sin offering, we should be looking for Christ, but we should be looking for it in kind of a low resolution image. Carey Griffel: and I love that you've pointed out that it's not the case that Jesus is , pouring over scriptures and saying, What do I do next in order to fulfill this? , that's not what's going on. Spencer Owen: Leviticus is a blueprint, but not for that purpose. Carey Griffel: So , there's a meaning there. And that meaning is just naturally showing up and it shows up as a pattern. And I would argue that it shows up throughout the entire Old Testament again and again and again. It's hard for us to see that this is really going to be connected to, the history of Israel. I, think we forget that. this has a cultural context that ritual system is embedded in the history of Israel itself. Spencer Owen: Right. And I know like the whole second half [00:18:00] of Leviticus, Leviticus 17 onward is considered to be what's called the holiness code which gives a lot of stipulations, regulations for feasts and for purity and all kinds of other, you know, ways to live with God and with neighbor. That's actually in that section is where the second greatest commandment, love your neighbors yourself comes from. And so. When we look at all of that, there's a tendency to say, Oh yeah, these are like, you know, universal prescriptions for everybody, but really they were specific designated principles of holiness that were given to Israel as the bearers of God's name among the nations. it was designed for a very unique and specific purpose. None of that means it just gets tossed in the bin now that Jesus is here. And unfortunately there's an awful lot of ways to respond to the holiness code and Levitical laws and to do that. And that's not at all the way I see it. But definitely for sure things change now that the Messiah has arrived. Now that the Messiah is the telos as , the end, the purpose, [00:19:00] the goal of the Mosaic covenant has arrived. So it's a delicate tension to find and to strike, but it is also a really important one to learn from Leviticus without necessarily cutting and pasting. Carey Griffel: it is hard because trying to figure out what's cultural, what's situational, what's the broader message, but that's why you have to get into the meaning and purpose of these things and why they're there. Like for instance, you have the two ways that you see this frequently translated. You have the sin offering. Or you have the Purification Offering. Spencer Owen: Mm hmm. The NRSV, New Revised Standard Version that's the approach it takes, is as a Purification Offering. And that's reflecting a lot of scholarship about what , the term kipper or kippu r and there's a couple of different variations on it mean, and most of them feel like it means purification primarily. And so that's where, we get that, but you're right. It does create a [00:20:00] bit of a confusion when you see that it's required that a woman who gives birth is required to provide a quote sin offering in some translations. And so it really helps it more just to kind of frame it from this standpoint of like, there's just an occasion of some sort that requires a sacrifice of atonement. It may be sinful, may not be. And , sometimes , the purification offering it comes up in incidental diseases and ordinary activities that you also see it pop up at like consecrations and dedications , for the priest, for the altar, for the tabernacle. And then there's also burnt offerings, which have a bit of an atoning function as well, in certain contexts that are offered daily at morning and evening. And so , what happens is , when we really look at the text, we don't see this kind of transactional sense of, you know, a sin offering is a so and so sinned, they must come and bring an animal , or else they're going to die. It just, that model just doesn't hold up in the text. [00:21:00] Because otherwise there's just so much wasted, well, spilled blood, you know, and everything else just happening all over the place all the time. And so I think that's one of the biggest things for me to remember when I first ran into it was to realize that like, well, a burn offering being offered in the evening and in the morning. And I'm wondering like, well, who sinned, who's that for? And , that question just doesn't really fit. Carey Griffel: Trying to map on the sacrificial system to some exact little, okay every single sin needs an atonement, needs a sacrifice, needs this covering. that we say so that God doesn't see it anymore, like we're going to hide it away under the blood. Once you look at , the uses of it, , it doesn't follow. And so then that's going to necessitate the question of what does it mean then? What is it for? Why do they even do it? Spencer Owen: Yeah. [00:22:00] Well, I mean, if you go to like Leviticus 4, which is where we see the Hebrew word for purification offering or, sin offering. It does say like it was brought for unintentional sins. And I know a lot gets made out of that, sometimes. I really don't make a whole lot out of that because I think that word is probably doing different things than we normally think of. Like when we say unintentional in English Mostly just because in the very next chapter in Leviticus five with the Asham, which is what we would normally call guilt offering or trespass offering, or in some translations, the recompense offering of recompense, it really can't be about purposeful intent. Because we see those things have to be offered in the cases like bearing false witness, swearing an oath swearing a rash oath lying, you know, all of those kinds of things it says are covered under the same unintentional umbrella. And so it really doesn't work that way, exactly. I think it probably has something more to do with like recklessness or carelessness. Like the new King James version translates[00:23:00] that word is through error. Instead of unintentional, so it's like, essentially, if a person who feels like they have erred in some way, or who it becomes made known to them that they have erred in some way, then they are to bring that chata or that asham and And ultimately it's basically just about like, this is what it is like to live life in a sinful world, for the Holy God to be in the middle of a sinful people this is what it takes is for them to continue. They will err a lot and there needs to be a way to deal with that so that God doesn't leave because of their sin. Carey Griffel: And it's this idea of presence that really just hit me like a ton of rocks when I was thinking about it because in my context of thinking about things like purification, in terms of Christian baptism, I'm not thinking in terms of God's presence, and [00:24:00] yet that's what we're kind of seeing here when we read Leviticus, when we read the history of Israel, their concern is that God is present with them, so they need to make sure that something is done so that they have God's presence with them, and that's kind of A bit of this framework. Spencer Owen: Yeah. It's this kind of like covenant blessing slash burden at the same time which is part of the whole idea of the holiness code and Leviticus is like, you are the ones who are burying God's name. That's a blessing. That's a wonderful, beautiful thing. You are going to be the vehicle of God's redemptive salvation to the rest of the nations that comes with a burden. I think I heard one of the podcasts I listened to say it like this, that everyone is responsible for the revelation they're given that the knowledge and the exposure and the presence that you participate in, you're accountable for. And that's what we see in the [00:25:00] sacrifices is that the Israelites had a much higher degree of presence of the Lord in their midst and they had a much higher degree of accountability and a much stricter regulations they had to deal with and that's why, you know, the worshiper brings their purification offering , to the entrance of the Holy space. So it's kind of hard to say auditorily, it's a little easier to see visually if you can kind of picture like a big fence basically, and there's like an interior space with a big altar it was a designated holy space, but it wasn't the holy space, which was the tent of meeting, which was totally enclosed, whereas this is more like open air. And so , that sacrificial offering, that gift must be pure and unblemished. And the reason for that is because only purity, only life can deal with death. , and only when that pure unblemished animal comes into that space, can , the impurity caused by death in the camp be dealt with. , and really at the end of the day, that's kind of a picture of like [00:26:00] symbolically being back at the entrance to the garden which is one of the reasons why the entrance to the tent of meeting, there were cherubim that were I don't know what the word would be exactly, but like stitched into the curtain, because the idea was that place is Eden symbolically and in order to enter Eden there has to be purity. And so that's where the whole sacrificial process started. Carey Griffel: so you have , the term sin offering as opposed to the purification offering. And I mean, there's a reason that they translate it that way. It's because of the literal Hebrew word that's used. Spencer Owen: Yeah. The exact same word is used for sin as for sin offering, quote unquote, sin offering. Carey Griffel: Right. And that's what we see in the first reference to sin in Genesis four in response to Cain's attitude is to talk about sin crouching at the door. It's the same exact word and that's really fascinating. It's hard for me as an English [00:27:00] speaker to wrap my mind around the idea that this is the same exact word because if I try and replace that word Wherever I see a sin offering and I just take off the offering, like, that doesn't, doesn't make any sense. And so clearly there's some different mental things going on in this language when they're approaching this than it is , when we're approaching it in English. Spencer Owen: Well, and I mean, what you're talking about is very relevant to what Paul is saying in 2 Cor 5:21 where he says, you know Christ became sin so that we might become the righteousness of God. And , I'm shorthanding, but a lot of times people hear that and they think, oh, well, you know, , he took on our guilt, the idea there is double imputation is the technical term that he takes on our guilt, gets rid of it, and then gives us his righteousness. And then that gets counted to us, but the problem is that that's based out of an understanding of the sacrifice and [00:28:00] how that worked that just doesn't, again, align with the text. So we were kind of painting that picture of there was an occasion that required a sacrifice of atonement, and then the animal was brought inside the holy space but not the most holy space and was, you know, at the altar , and then there's a, what's called a hand press or a samach is the Hebrew word that is placed on the head of the animal. And a lot of times there are some people who read that and say. Oh, well, this is, you know, some kind of transfer of guilt. This is like , the sinner taking their guilt and like by contact osmosis, like transferring it to the animal. And honestly Michael Morales was the scholar who was the most instrumental for me in seeing this in his book who will ascend to the mountain of the Lord. That doesn't work with the logic of sacrifice because purity and. Impurity don't mix. And so if the animal gets sins transferred to it through this hand press and then goes into the holy space, [00:29:00] or which can either be inside the tent of meeting or on the altar, either one, then that goes against the logic because now we have impurity entering holiness. And so what we need to be looking at when we hear things like, you know, Christ became sin for us is Christ became a sin offering, which doesn't mean this kind of transfer of guilt. What it means is dedication for holy purpose. It's not like a vicarious death of saying, okay, , I've sinned. I should die, place my hand on this animal. Now it's going to die in my place. It's more of saying, no, I'm identifying this as my animal for God. and there's that gift concept again, that I am bringing a gift to my sovereign as a way to establish our relationship on the right footing, because right now it's out of whack. Carey Griffel: We don't have very many places in our culture that have consecration as even a concept. Some of us want to consecrate our [00:30:00] children or bless them. They might use that language for infants when we're dedicating them to God. We might think about that in terms of dedicating our house to God's purposes. Some people will talk about that, but it's not very widespread. And so this idea of what is consecration and is that just for if you're You know, going into a certain ministry or, but you can see the crossover in the idea there, right? Spencer Owen: Oh yeah. That that's actually the way it is in the Pentateuch. Like when the priests, when Aaron and his sons are consecrated and dedicated, the whole congregation comes and lays their hands on them. In the New Testament, when the apostles are sent out, the assembly comes around them and lays their hands on them. It's the same event, the same word. And so obviously that can't be like, Oh, I'm, transferring my guilt to you because this is dedication for a holy purpose. And sometimes that holy purpose means destruction. Like we [00:31:00] see in the example of the blasphemer where in Leviticus 28, 27, I believe 26, I'm not sure precisely, but somewhere in there a guy. Blasphemes the name and the whole congregation comes around, lays their hands on him and then stones him. So again, it is the sense of dedication for a holy purpose, which is it should cause some fear and trembling without a doubt, but that doesn't necessarily mean death by any means, as we see with the priests as we see with the apostles and honestly, even as we see in the chata itself, the purification offering itself, where in Leviticus five there is a sliding scale that's offered for anybody who can't afford an animal and flour or grain or semolina kind of depends on the translation there, but essentially like, yeah, something that's not already alive in the same way an animal is alive, it's not a nephesh, it makes the same kind of atonement as a [00:32:00] nephesh does. And so when we look at what's happening in the sacrifices, we really have to understand That atonement does not require death. And that's just one of many examples that I could cite where, whether it's money or whether it's incense or whether it's a coal from the altar or just an intercession of a mediator. There are all kinds of different ways that, or even just simply repentance, like in Isaiah 27, nine, it says that, you know, when the Israelites tear down their altars, then Atonement will be made for them. And so it's, again, it's not saying, you know, when the, when the Israelites kill an animal or when I, you know, kill somebody else to accommodate, it's the core idea there is that atonement does not require blood. Blood is given for atonement. That's clear from Leviticus 17, 11 and 17, 14, but, But atonement does not require blood. Carey Griffel: Okay, so the term blood given for [00:33:00] atonement, can you expand on, like, what do you mean exactly by being given for atonement? Spencer Owen: Yeah. So essentially what is happening there, and I've actually done so recently I had a really good discussion with Jay Sklar, who's a pretty prominent Leviticus scholar, and , he's really shifted my thinking about this. He'd made a pretty good lexical argument to kind of connect Exodus 30 or sorry, Leviticus 17, 11. And there's some things I'm kind of shifting on that, but I think the thing that I feel the most comfortable saying right now is that blood is a holy substance. It's something that is dedicated and set apart specifically for the purpose of making atonement for sins and for impurity and for cleansing. And that's its sole purpose, which is why You know, you're not supposed to eat the meat with the blood still in. You're supposed to drain it out first, which is also why blood has to be disposed of in the sacrifice in a very specific prescribed [00:34:00] ways. It has to be poured out at the base of the altar or sometimes splashed or sometimes sprinkled in various ways. And any vessel that the blood touches has to be either destroyed or scoured or, you know, and even if blood sprinkles on the high priest garment, then it has to be specifically ritually disposed of. Like it's, a very. I don't want to say radioactive because that sounds bad, but like holy radioactive, I suppose substance that does the job of taking care of the impurity that sin causes. And I think, I mean, I, this is definitely some speculation here, but I do have an intuition that I have to explore and confirm but I have an intuition that it is connected to the the, the Ruach, the spirit of God that's said to be in , all flesh, all nephesh, all souls. And so I think that there's a sense in which what's happening there with the application of blood is that it's not that, the impurity is being hidden from God. Or [00:35:00] it's that God is being presented to the impurity. And so holiness , through the Ruach of God that is in the Nefesh like it says in Leviticus 17, 11, the life is in the blood. The holiness of God is coming into contact with the impurity and it's destroying it. It's eradicating it and through that kind of limited application of this, you know, nuclear power, nuclear force, and again, change the valence when I say that, but anyway, through this limited application of that power source safe application of that power source, when it's done as prescribed, it destroys bad stuff. It destroys death stuff. Carey Griffel: So the, blood it is a form of blood manipulation. Like it, we can't just wave away the fact that there's blood here. We can't just say, Oh, it's just, it doesn't matter. we can't just say, you know, we could just replace blood with Pepsi or [00:36:00] something and say it's the same thing because it's got this deep meaning and deep intentionality of what's going on. So we can't just say that there's nothing about the blood, that there's nothing that, you know, it has that meaning. But at the same time. We also see things that do similar things without the blood, and so we say, okay, so what is the underlying meaning and intent instead of saying there's this magical substance that God is just going to not be able to see through, and it's going to cover things, and it's going to make things invisible, whereas You know, there's a deeper underlying meaning and so the fact that blood is there The fact that blood is part of this whole situation Means that we need to ask ourselves What does blood mean? Why is it there? Like, is the meaning the death? [00:37:00] Because that's usually what we're thinking. We're thinking the meaning is death. Whereas everywhere, everywhere in scripture, blood is life. Spencer Owen: Life. Yes. Well, and again, to go back to the text, like, when you look at the, and you alluded to this earlier, but I want to reinforce it, like, when you look at the rituals that are prescribed for the sin offering or purification offering They spend dozens of verses on, here's how you take care of the blood. here's what you do with the entrails and make sure you wash the entrails before you place them on the altar. Because they too have to be purified before they come into contact with that. Here is where you kill the animal, which is not on the altar. And that's a really significant detail , which is both a difference from pagan sacrifices as well as an indicator of why blood does not equal death. Because we don't want the pinnacle of the altar, which is kind of symbolic of Eden [00:38:00] again, we don't want that to come into contact with death. And so, again, blood would not be death here. It would be the death of the animal, and that would be death. But what we're looking at is we see how in all those dozens of stipulations of how we're supposed to handle all the different parts of the animal, the death is given literally this much and he shall slaughter the animal. That's it. And so like the death is just simply not ritualized. We as modern Westerners don't have a lot of ritual, so it's kind of hard for us to step into this space, but it's really important to remember that what's ritualized really is essential or central to the ritual. And again, we see evidence of that when we see atonement being made without death multiple times. And so , it's more like the death is instrumental. The death is really the only way to accomplish the rest of the sacrificial ritual. And that's really the key factor. But there's also just like [00:39:00] a simple logical point here. Like if death was the most important part of the sacrifices, then the ritual could stop once the animal died, that could be the end of it. Or maybe, I mean, at worst, just like a quick, so kill the animal and burn the rest because it's disposable. But instead, what we see is slaughter the animal. That's the instrumental part. Now we get to the real stuff. Here's how you handle, you know, the flesh, the hide, everything else. So that's a really important and significant thing to lean heavy into when you look at the sacrifices. Carey Griffel: I think it's also really helpful to see this correlation between Blood and breath, the ruach, the spirit, I've thought and puzzled over this for a long time, and I'm gonna continue puzzling over this, , the difference between how Adam is described as being created compared to [00:40:00] pagan creations of humankind. When pagan gods create man, they're using the blood of a God. Adam's is not created via blood. He is animated with the breath of God, and so I'm like, well, why is there such a difference here? There's got to be something there, and this connection of life with these two very different substances, to us they're very different, but to the ancient person there would have been a very big correlation here. Spencer Owen: inextricably, inextricably connected. Well, and we also see that like that respect for life and that value of life and the way in which the animal actually does die. Again, this is not ritualized or stipulated, but what we do know the way it was is that the death was humane and quick possible. So again, death wasn't the focus. It wasn't like this is the precise way in which you are to do this, you know, death ritual, because that just wasn't as important and [00:41:00] relative to , the cross and Jesus and the pattern, which again, we want to remember the death of the sacrificial animal is going to be a low resolution image of Jesus's death. And the death of the animal was totally absent from all brutality, all torture. And more or less, at least for the time, for sure, all suffering. And so when we look at Jesus on the cross and we say, Oh, he died as a sacrifice if we're saying, well, look at all the brutality and torture and suffering of the cross and that's the sacrificial component, then we're really missing what Leviticus is telling us. And we're trying to fit a square peg into a round hole. Carey Griffel: Man, , that's a mind shift just in and of itself, so we have two things that are going on. , we have the sacrificial system in the Old Testament. We have what Jesus did in his life and death and resurrection and all of that. And we know that those are related. We know that there's [00:42:00] direct correlations in ways. We know we can map the one onto the other in some form. And. Then we need to ask ourselves though, after that, what are the differences? Like , we, acknowledge certain differences when we get to Jesus and we're like, he's the better prophet, he's the better priest, he's the better all of the things. And then we forget that once we're mapping this thing in the Old Testament onto the work of Jesus, , we're just gonna try and make these direct correlations and not see the differences that are all there Spencer Owen: Well and that's why a close read of Leviticus is required and why I didn't get it until I just sat and committed to tha t, it's I think it's a play that It, it is the similarities and it is the differences both tell us something. So like, for example, one of the things that we see in the, the, the death of the animal the, the sacrificial animal is that the worshiper kills the animal, not the [00:43:00] priest. So the priest is kind of like the representative of God. And And what's happening there is that it's not a divine death sentence being executed, which again, we would expect if this whole matrix of ideas of like the hand press means, you know, imputation of guilt, and it's a, it's a vicarious penalty and a vicarious death, we would expect for it's Quote unquote, God, in this case, the priest to kill the animal, but really the worshiper kills the animal. And so there's, there's just a lot of different ways in which that start, that the edifice starts to crumble when you look really closely at both the similarities and the differences with the, with the Levitical sacrifices. Carey Griffel: So you can look at the similarities and differences between Old Testament and New Testament. You can also look at the similarities and differences within something like Leviticus itself, Why do they have the Day of Atonement at all if everything can just be taken care of by a sin offering, [00:44:00] right? Let's just do more sin offerings. And then we've dealt with the sin. Spencer Owen: Yeah. Yeah. And there's a whole rabbit hole there. I'm not going to, I mean, like, and it's, that's actually a major split in Levitical scholarship between like Jacob Milgram and Roy Gane as to what exactly is going on there and everybody kind of takes their camps and there's little sub camps within that. And so again, Not going to go down that rabbit hole, but but yes, you're right. I think what's really helpful for people is to go through Leviticus line by line and start writing everything out. Not like, you know, not literally word for word, but like, you know, making a little bullet points and taking notes along the way and just asking why, why, why, why every single time. like, for example after the animal is killed, then the gift, the sacrifice is divided the animal's skinned, it's flayed, and then it's hide is given to the priests. You presumably, I would say probably like, here's an example of, you know, answering [00:45:00] that why question, presumably because since the priests weren't allowed to keep their own livestock and weren't given inheritance in the land, this is how they are taken care of. They're given, you know, skin for their clothes or tents. Now, of course, the exception there is if he's and this is another one of those details that means why is that there? So in the case that the priest is offering a sin offering or a purification offering for his own sins, then the whole thing is burned up outside the camp and the reason for that, and this also pops up again in the actual flesh, the meat , of the offering. The reason for that is presumably , he no longer can be the sin bearer and benefit from being the sin bearer at the same time. the sin bearer is a very serious responsibility and if he's taking care of his own sins, then he can't benefit from that sacrifice in that way. So he doesn't get the hide and he doesn't get the flesh at the same time. And so those little details like that tell us an awful lot [00:46:00] about the theology of what's going on there. But again, like we said the first time, the main point of that theological perspective there is not that God has to have death. It's that God's taking care of his people. He's feeding his priests, he's clothing his priests, and that's what he wants. , and that's because that's who he is. He's a merciful and gracious God. And then after that dividing of the animal, then the choice portions or the memorial portions, it's sometimes called are washed. And then placed on the altar and then burnt up by fire. So those choice portions are like the kind of like the the kidneys and the liver and the fat around it, you know, all of that stuff. And that's where we see The elements of the soothing aroma or pleasing aroma depends on which translation you have as to which one it is. So again, if we're, there's another one of those details that makes you, you should be asking why it's very frequent to see people say, and I think we talked to this last time about how [00:47:00] even as much as I like Michael Morales, he, in my opinion, he missed this when he talks about how there was a pleasing aroma of the sacrifice for Noah and that, you know, propitiated God and that appeased his wrath. But actually, again, that's not what's happening here in the pleasing aroma narrative of the Pentateuch. What's happening there is that God is receiving it as a food offering, as a Thanksgiving offering. and we know that that's like His set aside just for Him because the penalty for consuming those is the same as for consuming blood, they get cut off from among the people. Now the further indicator that that pleasing aroma is specifically tied to like food offering language apart from just it's absolutely ubiquitous, pairing in the text is that there's also usually a drink offering or a mixture of spices in numbers 15 and also salt in Leviticus two that gets poured out on top of the choice portions. And so [00:48:00] again, it's like literally like God's food, , it gets salted and , his drink. Now again, Symbolic. This is not, I mean, God's pretty clear that he's like, you realize I don't literally eat that do you guys? But yet again, we have to ask if the death is the point, why, why do this? I mean, it doesn't make any sense. That's because the death isn't the point. The communion with God is the point. Carey Griffel: Because it's clear over and over. , God is not there to be bribed. He's not there. , for us to try and just have our way, and try and influence him to have our way. But it's, always about his will. And so, if we're like, this is just a bribe for God, and, you know, we're going to give him the best so that he'll give us what we want. The Bible's very clear. Just the whole entire narrative, the way that God presents , his self in [00:49:00] history, that's not what we're looking at here, and it's very contrasted with what we see of pagan gods who They are seen as insatiable quite often and things like that Spencer Owen: Yes. And they are depicted as drinking blood , and those kinds of things. And that's really the next step of, what happens in the sin offering is that the blood gets manipulated. But again, it gets manipulated in very specific prescribed ways because That matters that carries theological freight. And so the majority of it is poured out of the base of the altar. In some cases it's applied to other holy objects like the horns of the altar in the outer court, the altar of incense inside the tent of meeting in that super holy space. Or on the day of atonement, like you mentioned, sprinkled seven times before the veil in the holy of holies. And this is a key detail. It's another one of those details. It goes, huh. When you really closely read it is that the blood is never applied to people. [00:50:00] Almost never, I should say the exceptions are when the priests are consecrated, it's applied to their earlobes. And I believe if my recollection serves their big toe. And then in the case of a skin disease. So like a leprosy, basically we would call it. And then also in the context of confirming the covenant in Exodus 24, where Moses dips the hyssop in the bowl and sprinkles the book of the covenant and sprinkles the people. But again, that was not a sin offering. That was a burnt offering and a peace offering in Exodus 24. Whereas yes, it was the blood of the sin offering in the other cases. But again, we have to, especially like with a skin disease or the priest being consecrated, we have to ask, how is this a transactional thing? The priest is being consecrated. Like if he already has committed a sin, and it's a transactional thing, he should have already offered a sin offering. It's not just a, Oh, we'll just give you a sin offering to kind of cover everything, which again, wouldn't even be a transactional, even, even if it were true. [00:51:00] So it's just like the more you look at the details and the more you keep asking why. The more it raises so many questions about the way in which we just kind of skim right over the details on the surface and think we know what they mean. When we look at how the blood is manipulated, we see that it means something very, very different. It's applied to the furniture. It's applied to objects and atonement is made for the furniture Carey Griffel: And as much as I don't like stubbing my toe, and I might complain that the table stubbed my toe, I don't think it needs atonement for that. I don't think that was an intentional act from the table. Spencer Owen: No, no. It's just accumulating impurity, you know, it's essentially like, you know, the Holy of Holies is God's bedroom. You know, the tent of meeting is his living room and the outer courtyard is His porch or his front yard kind of thing. I mean, I'm, doing a really rough and dirty and [00:52:00] probably semi blasphemous summary here, but that's, you know, somewhat sort of the idea is that God's invited us into his house, or in this case, God has invited the Israelites into his house. And they are rambunctious and messy kids that don't listen and don't obey and as anyone who is a parent of young children can attest There's this entropy that occurs things just Fall apart, crack, get dirty unexpectedly in bizarre ways. And every now and then you have to do a deep clean. And I think that's an awful lot of what's going on in the Day of Atonement. But you also have to do regular cleaning and that's what's happening in the daily sacrifices and which again are not transactional. I'm not sitting here scrubbing off my kid's crayon off of the corner of the table and saying, Oh, you're lucky I'm doing this , so that you don't have to. It's an act of love. I love my kid and yes, they've messed up [00:53:00] my living room, but you know what? I want to live with them and I also want my house to be clean. And so I cleaned it up. And that's the primary frame that we have to keep in mind when we're looking at the sacrifices. Not this concept of like penalty and death, hanging over everything. Carey Griffel: Especially when I was younger, looking at things and going, why do we have baptism and why do we have some types of washing in the Old Testament? But it seems kind of a low key thing. Like if we're talking about purification. Why don't they just wash everything? You know, why don't they just use water to wash everything? What is the difference between the purification of water versus The purification of blood, is there a difference and how can we, see that? Spencer Owen: it's a really good question. And , I gotta be honest, I don't know that I have a fully fleshed out answer to give for that. I do know that [00:54:00] washing is still part of the ritual, even with blood. Like I said before, you know, the entrails, the choice portions had to be washed before they're placed on the altar. And then at the end of the whole ritual, there's a set of washings where the bowl used to prepare the meat for eating had to be either scoured or washed out there, or if it was, you know, unable to be scoured cause it was pottery, then it was broken any garment with blood spattered on it had to be washed or in some cases burned. Carey Griffel: Yeah. Before priests got dressed, they had to be washed as well. Spencer Owen: Yeah. So like, there still is a sense that washing with water matters and is important and is necessary. so, you know, the presence of the blood and the purification of blood doesn't seem to eradicate that. I'm not sure that I can say with complete certainty exactly how and why it all mechanically works out partly because this is symbol and I don't think we're supposed to like necessarily fit it onto a spreadsheet. But what I can say is that that is the way in which I mean, that's the primary way in which we talk about [00:55:00] being washed in the New Testament is washed through baptism cleansing in that way. And that's an act of sanctification. That's an act of setting apart, designating for holy purpose, belonging to God. And it fits into that narrative pattern of going through the waters of the Sea of Reeds in Exodus. And so yeah, it's tricky. And if I ever get a good answer for that, I will make sure I let you know. Carey Griffel: Well, at least I think that we could say that it doesn't have to be an either or it's not like you can only use one thing for washing, and we're just gonna stick with that one. Because when you see all of these different connections, you see the connection with blood, you see the connection with water, I think there is a deep connection with breath and life, especially when you go and trace , the conceptual theme throughout scripture. Breath is absolutely there. Water is absolutely there. They probably do have different theological meanings. [00:56:00] Like there's maybe levels to it. You know, I would be willing to bet that there's some deeper theological messaging that's going on there. So, what that is, I mean, I don't know, but you can see that there's different kinds of understandings. Spencer Owen: Well, I know sometimes whenever I talk about, you know, the sacrifices and blood in this way, people kind of think that I'm trying to like minimize death or minimize sin or diminish God's holiness or something. and I don't think it's like that at all, because at a minimum, the fact that we need to kill something, it's going to be a massive cost, especially for any Israelite you know, especially a peasant. And yes, there's a graded scale there. And like I said, all the way down to flour that makes atonement. But the idea there is more like that the sin of the people is very, very serious. And blood being like the par excellence cleanser being applied means this is very serious stuff. And there's real [00:57:00] danger here. And so I'm not in any way trying to diminish any of that. Just trying to look at what the text actually does say and doesn't say and how that all connects. . And there's the very real connection of Jesus's death with our baptism, right? What Jesus did, how he died, how he lived, all of that, the whole package of that. I think trying to reduce that into just one little conception is also mistaken because it's such a wide thing. I think that that's a whole picture that we need to be looking at instead of just picking out the little elements that we happen to like. And let's put those together and make our theology out of that. Spencer Owen: . At the end of the day, the end result of all of it, of Jesus's sacrifice, as well as of the purification offering is forgiveness. And that is a major, major gracious gift and a blessing from God. , but it's really important to make sure that like, we talked about last time that we keep in mind, you know, [00:58:00] how that operates. So the Hebrew word that usually gets used there to describe forgiveness is to nasah avon. So it's the idea of like caring or bearing or lifting up or elevating. And the word picture is of someone who's stronger bearing the burden of the weaker, which is what the priest did. And, you know, the priests were that sin bearer. They bore iniquity on behalf of the people. And that's exactly what Jesus does. That's what Peter in first Peter two is talking about when he says that he bore our sins in his body on the tree, like, yes, Jesus was the sin bearer, but let's remember how Leviticus does that. Leviticus says , that's a priestly role. Jesus is the Holy One, just like the priest, consecrated and purified, just like the priest, and therefore was uniquely capable of bearing or carrying the responsibility that was caused by the, people's sinfulness. To say he's a sin bearer is not to say like he underwent a death that appeases the wrath of God.[00:59:00] It's a merciful and holy God desiring to live in the midst of a sinful people and making a way for God to bear their iniquity in the person of the priests in Leviticus and the person of Christ in the New Testament. And the way in which , that bearing sin is done, just like with the priest, is not by death, although yes, that is the culmination, but it's by life. , I'm not sure if I mentioned this, I don't think I did mention this the last time, but like in Matthew's gospel, Matthew eight, 14 through 17, it talks about how christ fulfilled the suffering servant vocation in his life by bearing our infirmities and carrying our diseases, which again is like taking , all of our sinful human condition, all of our fallen condition into his own self and uniting it to his divine nature and through that process, healing it. And so like the church fathers talk about how Jesus canceled out our disobedience by [01:00:00] his obedience. This is Irenaeus and the same language is used to refer to Israel in Ezekiel 20 where it says that God will accept them as a, you know, sweet aroma. There's that, you know, pleasing aroma concept again, not because anything died, but because of their repentance and the same language in the New Testament Paul uses it to refer to offering the Gentiles as a offering. He literally says that in Romans 15, 16 and believers are called to Give themselves as a sweet aroma as well. And it says that Jesus did the same thing in Ephesians five, two, and we should imitate him. So again, what Paul in Ephesians is saying is not saying now you guys need to go and die, which again, it might require that. There is death. There was plenty of martyrdom for the apostles. Just like there was plenty of death in the sacrificial system. But that's not the core central meaning of what it means to be a pleasing [01:01:00] aroma and a sacrifice. Carey Griffel: I think if we're trying to wrap our minds around what purification is and why is that a big deal? Why does God's sanctuary need it? If we then bring that over to the idea of the sin bearer. And how essential that role is to the process as well. I think that is potentially helpful. Because purification, like we think of it as just washing away. But , you look at this Sin Bearer idea, it's about taking it actively away. It's like casting it out, putting it where it belongs. Not just in the sense of go wash your hands, but go put The nasty stuff where it actually belongs and not where it doesn't belong. Spencer Owen: Put it in the garbage can. Yeah. And that's really, that's one of my favorite analogs for the other Sinbearing figure, which is the Azazel goat, the goat for Azazel in Leviticus 16 [01:02:00] is it acts kind of like a garbage truck where, you know, and that actually is where there is a transfer and it's explicit in the text, which is another reason why I feel comfortable looking back at Leviticus four and saying, huh, Leviticus 16 has no problem saying the sins are confessed and the animal becomes unclean through that process because even the guy who handles them is now unclean. You know, has no problem being explicit in leviticus 16, if they're not explicit, Leviticus four, it's probably because it's not there. And so , that's really what's happening is, you know, the Azazel goat, the sin bearer is taking all the sins on themselves is going outside the camp off into the wilderness into the realm of death and darkness and dropping all the sins at the landfill where they belong that's where they belong, not in the middle of the people where God is. And so, yes, it is ultimately at the end of the day, there is a looming kind of background sense [01:03:00] of rescue from death in the sacrificial system. There is a concept of wrath kind of looming way off in the distance and an idea of ransom , from death. However, like in the actual narrative itself, it's very much not like, okay. If you sin, I'm going to get you. It's like, no, no, no, no. Like if you sin, I have made a system to make this work so that I can stay around sinful people through the faithfulness of a representative. That what God designed it to do was to offer that blameless, sacrifice and the animal that was killed is not the one that bears or carries sin or iniquity. That's the priest. And they're the spotless, pure representative, the strong one will bear the iniquity of the people on their behalf, make atonement for them through a life of faithful service as a servant or as a son. And because of the [01:04:00] righteousness, the faithfulness, the loyal love of that representative, God is moved to compassion and forgiveness because of the faithful intercession of that mediator, the many are counted righteous, which is what we see in Isaiah 53 at the very end. What we see in Romans 8, 34, we see in Hebrews 7, 19 through 25, like it's in first John at the end of chapter one, the beginning of chapter two, like all of these are ideas that. Paul makes explicit in Romans five that we are saved by his life. Carey Griffel: So the sin offering in Leviticus is, described differently for different classes of people. You have the different descriptions in chapter four of Leviticus. You have the priest who sins, and then you have the whole congregation of Israel. You have the leader, you have the common people, it brings each one of those out specifically. Spencer Owen: Yeah. [01:05:00] And part of that is because the blood gets handled differently and the meat gets handled differently. So if it's the priest or if it's all the people as a whole who have sinned, then the blood actually enters into the tent of meeting and is applied inside there. Whereas if it's, you know, one of the elders of the people, or if it's just a ordinary person, then the blood doesn't enter in. And in that case whenever the blood doesn't enter in, then the meat is allowed to be consumed by the priest. That idea becomes really, really important for the priest as a sin bearer. Like Moses in Leviticus 10 says to Aaron, he says like, you didn't, You didn't eat it. What's going on? You should, you're supposed to, this is given to you , to bear iniquity on behalf of the congregation. Which again, I think it's really important to remember that the end result of that is Aaron says, no, I have a good reason. Then Moses goes, Oh, [01:06:00] okay. So it really should again, break our spreadsheet, basically, is the idea, that if we're coming at this and we've got this like ironclad idea of like every single sin someone has to die in their place or else, you know, this person's going to die. That's just not something that the text will support from the story of Cain all the way down. And what we really need to do is kind of look at this and say, Look at the details. Yes. Ask why? Yes, but zoom out as well and see the whole picture and say, why is God even doing this? Why, what is the whole point of this? And the whole point of it is to purify and make holy and keep holy a people for his own possession. It talks about how God has redeemed the people for his own possession in Revelation 5, 9. So yeah, this is very much a redemption motif and a ransom motif, but it's not ransoming from an angry God or ransoming from God who's standing ready to kill them. It's [01:07:00] ransoming from the forces of darkness, ransoming from Egypt symbolically. And which is why we see kopher, which is the same root, as kippir the word for atone. Why we see that in Exodus 30 of the idea of the firstborn of Israel giving a A ransom for their lives is that they're being dedicated for God for holy purpose for him. And yes, if they don't, a plague will come on them, but just like we saw in the plagues that happened immediately prior to that, those plagues were a judgment on the gods of Egypt. And so what's happening there is God's basically saying, who are you going to belong to? Who are you going to serve? Are you going to serve me? Are you going to serve the gods of the nations or the wilderness demons? Like, you know, Azazel, to whom are you going to belong? And so that sense of ransom there is a transfer of ownership from one kingdom to another, a transfer of belonging. And that's exactly how Paul talks about in [01:08:00] Colossians 1, 13 through 14. He says, we've been transferred from the kingdom of darkness, the kingdom of his son. And he calls that the redemption, the forgiveness of sins. So it's really, those are two very closely tied together concepts that when we are pulled out of one kingdom by the blood and stamped and sealed by that blood as belonging to God, then God takes our certificate of debt that did belong to our former slave master. And like John Chrysostom says, he remits it joyfully. He tears it asunder, like he's not demanding payment of it. He's desiring freedom and release. And that's the picture that we see in Leviticus. Carey Griffel: Yeah. We don't really connect in our minds, at least I don't, the idea of purification or washing and this kind of idea with consecration and dedication. Like those are two entirely different things in my head. Like I have different categories for those things.[01:09:00] Whereas here it's a very mixed up and, you know, we were talking earlier about the consecration idea and the laying on of hands and how, , you can see it in different ways and for different purposes. , I think that's what's going on in James five when he's talking about praying for healing and people laying on of hands it's that dedication and consecration and, , we're trying to interact with you, God, in this specific way. Let's do it intentionally kind of a thing. And so, you know, it's about ministry, but it's about washing. It's about healing. It could potentially be about destruction, as you mentioned. So that's a wide, wide range of meanings attached to what's going on. But at the base, there's one thing that's going on. Spencer Owen: And, the base of that is that God desires to be in the midst of his people, but his people are messed up. And so he provides a way for them to be healed through [01:10:00] sin bearing in the priest, through purification with the blood, through communion with the choice portions being offered up by fire through feeding them and taking care of them, through the priests and through sacrifices like the peace offering, where the whole people is sit down for a communal meal. Same thing was true for the Passover lamb, and he redeems them from the kingdom of darkness. And there's that ransom concept. . And at the end of it all , is what we see in the goat for Azazel, where he takes those sins and he sends them back where they belong, which is what we see in Psalm 103, where it says he removes our sins as far away from us as the East is from the West. , and that's the image that the apostles are trying to paint for us in their writings and Jesus is painting for us in his life. Carey Griffel: Beautiful. It is a tapestry and it's beautiful. Spencer Owen: It's very, very tightly woven together. So every single thread matters and the whole thing matters as well. I freely admit, it's [01:11:00] complex, it's technical, and it's difficult, but in the end, it absolutely is worth it. That's my kind of final statement after seven years of studying this, so. Carey Griffel: Deep study can be very frustrating because you end up with more questions all the time. More and more questions all the time. You're just like, why can't I just get to an answer instead of more questions? But that's, not really how it works when you really tackle a subject very deeply. But the interesting thing is, the more questions you get, the more interesting questions you're getting and the deeper you're getting into the meaning and the purpose and all of that. Spencer Owen: For me at least, maybe it's just because I'm super nerdy, but the more excited I get, the more it energizes me, the more I start to understand things a lot better. Like, I mean, I don't know. I think I might be the only person I know of, except for people who I've ran into online in the same niches who when a [01:12:00] new book on Leviticus comes out, like Andrew RA's book going to be coming out soon, hopefully , they've been saying that for like two years now called lamb of the free. Like when that comes out, like I'm super excited, it's, on my pre order list and I'm waiting for it. And I just got a book recently about justice and justification. And I'm super excited to read that and that has heavy emphasis on sacrifices and, Old Testament Ideas of justification and so it's like stuff like this is super nerdy, but it also has a direct correlation to how I see God in that I don't see him anymore as somebody who's just so disgusted by me that he can't stand to look at me and thankfully he can wear s O N sun glasses that will allow him to look at me. But it's more like he's saying, no, you're the image. You are who I, like, this is, this is me. And yeah, it's defaced, it's scarred, it's banged up. But you know what? I got a plan for that and I will do whatever it takes [01:13:00] literally going down to hell to be able to make that a reality. And , that's the picture that I see. Reflected again, low resolution, but still reflected in Leviticus. Carey Griffel: Thank you, Spencer, for this conversation. I hope that it's really helpful to others. a bit rambling, but you know it's about conversation and really thinking it through trying to do it in real ways that really impact us and the kinds of questions we can ask, the kinds of ways we can look at it, the kinds of correlations there are between all of these different ideas that we tend to separate out into different categories and say, that's a different thing, and that's a different thing over there, there's no connection there, they just happen to show up at the same time. Whereas what we really see is this tapestry. It's exactly this beautiful layered tapestry where There's different angles and views of looking at it. And it's not always that [01:14:00] there's something necessarily wrong with everything that somebody else is framing it as. But the question is, can we look at it from the perspective of the ancient person and how would they have looked at it? And can that reflect and help us view it better? Mm hmm. Spencer Owen: And at the end of the day, that whole tapestry is Christ. Carey Griffel: Yes. Yes. And that is our focus that's the whole purpose of why we even want to learn about this stuff it's not Some esoteric thing it really has involvement in our daily lives as followers of Christ. Well, thank you again Spencer I hope that we can have you on again soon, and we will continue the conversation Spencer Owen: Sure. , happy to be here. Thank you so much. Carey Griffel: Well, that is the end of this episode. As always, I deeply hope that you enjoyed it and that you got something out of it that you didn't have before you listened. In the next few weeks, you can look forward to some more [01:15:00] conversations that I will be releasing. And if anyone has any questions for my Q& A, there is still time to get some in for my next Q& A episode. Thanks to everyone who's already submitted questions, and thank you all for listening to the podcast. I've noticed some new reviews coming in, so that's always exciting when I get to read those. Thank you for everyone who reviews this show wherever you listen, you can do that on my website at genesismarksthespot. com. And that is also where you can contact me if you do have any questions or ideas for topics you'd like me to tackle. Thank you for sharing my episodes, and thank you especially to my Patreon and PayPal supporters. You guys help me keep the lights on, and help me gather resources for all of these episodes, so I really appreciate that. At some point, I do hope to be releasing some merchandise, like t shirts and mugs and, you know, stickers, all of that kind of fun [01:16:00] stuff. So, hopefully you can look forward to that, but it takes me a little bit of time to figure out all of these technical things. 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