The Genesis of Exodus, with Caleb Lewis - Episode 082

Carey Griffel: Welcome to Genesis Marks the Spot, where we raid the ivory tower of biblical theology without ransacking our faith. My name is Carey Griffel, and today I am so thrilled to have a conversation with Caleb Lewis, who is the co host of the podcast, the Bible in Context, and who has just released a new book called Through the Waters, A Biblical Theology of the Book of Genesis. [00:00:35] And of course, we are very interested in biblical theology and Genesis here. So I'm really excited to talk about this book today. Thanks for joining me, Caleb. [00:00:46] [00:00:46] Caleb Lewis: Yeah, thanks for having me on. I'm excited to talk to you. [00:00:49] Carey Griffel: Before we get into our discussion, could you please tell everyone a little bit about yourself, maybe a little bit about your faith journey and what brought you to podcasting and writing a book on biblical theology? [00:01:01] Caleb Lewis: Sure. Yeah, absolutely. Whenever I came into the faith I was Always sort of, you know, a quote unquote Christian as a kid but didn't quite understand really why so many around me were so in love with Jesus. And I just didn't quite get that. In my teenage years, we had a new youth pastor who came along and really discipled me and a small group of guys. [00:01:20] And we were able to really ask some difficult questions. And that, first of all, it helped me really see Jesus in light of my world, as part of my worldview now, and I was able to appreciate what he did, who he is, and to, to love him and to fully give my trust and allegiance to him. [00:01:36] That also brought me into the faith with a lot of big questions. And so naturally I wanted to understand everything. And so As most Christians do, I started out in the New Testament, and the more that I read the New Testament, I realized to really get a good grasp here, I need to understand the Old Testament. So, I went back to the Old Testament and realized that I need to go back to the Torah to understand all the things that the prophets and so on are saying. [00:02:01] And that led me further back to Genesis and into the background cultural studies, literary structures, and things like that to really get a better grasp of the Old Testament. The Bible as a whole, and then ultimately who Jesus is and how that should affect my allegiance to him. So, that led to a lot of study of the literary structures, as I said, and I noticed, at least relevant to our conversation, that there are a lot of Exoduses all throughout scripture. The prophets and the apostles, and even up to the book of revelation, depict what Jesus has done for us, and in the Old Testament, what he would do for us, in terms of the Exodus, often. [00:02:40] And, you know, that's interesting, has a lot of big implications as to how we shape our hope. Well, I wondered, in Genesis, is the same thing going on here? Because I have seen some scholars pointing out, hey, there's an Exodus in Genesis over here, and over here, but no one has really shown how the Exodus runs all throughout the book of Genesis and how it ties the book together as a literary and theological and narrative whole . [00:03:04] So, as I was going through the book of Genesis over and over again, and trying to catch up on the scholarship that's been done in that book, I noticed some of those Exodus patterns were happening in places that had never been talked about before. And I noticed that it was happening all throughout the book. [00:03:18] I believe there was like 18 or 19 exoduses in the book of Genesis before you actually get to the exodus, the big exodus of Israel out of Egypt. And so that led to me writing down these notes and thoughts and starting to put them into a readable format and make it into a book. And before that was published my pastor, Nate, if you've listened to the Bible in Context, he's in that podcast. [00:03:41] We decided to start a podcast since he was in a preaching series on Genesis and to just start going through some of these more in depth literary structures and patterns and some of the language that's important. And so the podcast really became a birth out of the idea of the book and led up to its publication as well as we continue to wrestle with Genesis throughout. We're still not done with it, but it definitely helps in some of the conversations that we've had. [00:04:06] Carey Griffel: That is so awesome. So does the podcast go along with Bible study at your particular church and things like that. [00:04:15] Caleb Lewis: More or less, yeah, we, don't have a strict schedule in the podcast as it corresponds to the sermon series. We just try to step through Genesis bit by bit and cover from a very high level what I say in the book in a more detailed sense. And then we also just get to talk about a little more pastoral application and, things like that, that you can't quite do in a book unless you're wanting to write a tome. [00:04:36] Carey Griffel: Right, right. Yeah, and I have been enjoying your book. So for people who are interested in looking at it and getting into your writing and things, I would say that for your average reader, It's a very packed book. Like, you go from point to point to point to point, So for a lot of people I think If you're not used to consuming a lot of data heavy and data driven material, it might be a bit of a slow read for you, just because I would suggest you want to sit with these things, right, because you bring a lot of passages into what people are going to be looking at for these themes and so, you know, for people who are not used to that kind of thing and who haven't been exposed to A whole lot of the exodus themes in genesis, you know, it looks like a short book, but it's so packed. It's just so very packed with information. [00:05:32] So I I love it and I love that kind of stuff So thank you good information. And I really encourage people to check it out Because you go through all of these different motifs and you do connect them Directly with scripture, directly with passages showing how the words are showing up and things like that . It's a great resource for us because I think you're right that the Exodus is a huge theme and I think it's gonna speak to and help us inform how we understand Genesis in light of The Torah, and in light of the rest of the narrative of Scripture, even through Jesus and through Revelation, which you make a lot of those connections. [00:06:13] And another thing I really like and appreciate about your book is that you really drill down into that. Like, you're trying to make not only the data connections, but show how it applies to us as Christians. And that's good stuff. [00:06:27] Caleb Lewis: Yeah, if all that I had was data, I don't know if I would have written it. I want to show not only be another voice just putting out data, but I want it to matter for the church and how we live in allegiance to King Jesus. [00:06:38] So that's, I mean, that's a big part of it. The data is good enough but I'm glad that thankfully the Lord helped me to also see why is it significant for our reading of this book as Christians, not just scholars. [00:06:51] Carey Griffel: Right. And I think that, you know, a lot of this kind of biblical theology has really been coming out for a lot of people, but I've seen time and time again, people ask, well, That's really interesting, but what does it matter to me? [00:07:07] And so, you know, you have this progression in the way that it's been presented, the way people are consuming the content, and I think people are getting more into that application side, which I think is really exciting and absolutely necessary to us. So. Good, good stuff. Do you want to go ahead and kind of overview the theme of the Exodus and how we can see it and like, how are you going to be able to parse that and not just presume that we're eisegeting it into the text, basically. [00:07:42] Caleb Lewis: Yeah, absolutely. Like I said, there's about 18 or 19. So depending on how you want to there's one in there, I have actually parentheses around saying like, this might be an Exodus. So I, that's why I kind of vary my numbers there. But so yeah, that's a lot of Exodus is before the Exodus. [00:07:56] So how do you know, I'm not just finding this everywhere I want to? Well the Bible is a very self referential book and it actually will often, when it repeats phrases, it will try to vary the language to just really for artistry. And when you see phrases that are repeated exactly or words that are not used very often being repeated in certain contexts or with other repeated words that you find in the same contexts, you know that there's a connection trying to be made here. [00:08:26] And so when you look at the lemmas being used, the words, the phrases, and really the conceptual contexts all being clustered together throughout the book of Genesis, you see all these come together as, okay, this is a pattern in the story. This is the author trying to tell us and show us something. And so, what are some of the steps that we see in the Exodus? [00:08:50] Now, I'm not going to go into, obviously, all the repeated words and phrases at the moment. I'm sure that would be a little droning on, so there are about eight steps just on the whole that I've identified through most of these Exodus events. [00:09:02] And so the first one is that we have some elect one that Yahweh has chosen, elected. And this elect one is in a place of violence or in a place of ruin or oppressors, possibly in some state of exile. So it's really this ruinous, violent situation. [00:09:20] Now, Yahweh sees, hears, or comes to know of the situation. You find language of that where the information of the suppressive situation comes to Yahweh, and then he reacts. [00:09:30] The enemies are defeated, the state of ruin is subdued. We see that from You know, creation with the waters being subdued all the way up to the Egyptians being struck and defeated in the Red Sea or with the plagues. [00:09:43] The Elect One then comes out, and what's really cool is that they often come out with a mixed multitude. There are more people and possessions added to them as they come out. [00:09:52] And then there is an act of new creation in that elect family. [00:09:56] The elect one is then brought to Yahweh's dwelling or brought to his temple or a temple is built. There's some way in which the elect one, the elect community, is brought closer to Yahweh's presence and his place. [00:10:08] The elect community is then commissioned as priests and kings. Often they are blessed and they're often set up to serve in this dwelling, in this temple or place of Yahweh. [00:10:20] And then there is often, sadly the story continues with a fall, some act of disloyalty that results in exile. And there's a lot of small details that link all these exoduses together, but these eight steps are a general frame around the exodus motif. [00:10:39] Carey Griffel: And you make the point that It's not necessarily the case that we have to see them exactly in this order in each of the stories or that we even Need to see all of them, [00:10:49] Caleb Lewis: right. Yeah, there may be variations on the theme I mean that's that's kind of how the biblical author communicates is variations on a theme and Often these eight steps, once the Exodus motif has played out a couple of times, We now have a framework in our head of okay If I see steps one and two, I'm probably going to see steps three through eight. [00:11:09] Well, when the author adds steps, takes away steps, changes things in the Exodus motif, we're being taught new things. We're being shown how the Exodus motif might apply in a new situation or with new people we're shown, how does the elect one react to, you know, situation X, Y, or Z? How does a non elect person react when they find themselves in an Exodus situation, or if they are the oppressed instead of the oppressor, how does Yahweh act in different situations, whenever the elect one needs rescue, or if the elect one becomes the oppressor themselves? [00:11:42] So we begin to see how all the different biblical characters, all of the elect ones, the non elect, Yahweh, characters who portray the nations, how do they all react to various situations, various types of sin, or, you know, all sorts of different variations in the story. And it teaches us to think as the author does, really. Because we can see our own situations in these, we begin to think with the wisdom of the author. And, I mean, that's really how the Bible wants to teach us wisdom. We meditate on scripture and understand how Yahweh sees various situations, then we can apply it to our own. [00:12:21] Carey Griffel: It also seems to me that It's like comparing literature, right? You compare the Bible with other ancient literature, and it's not just the similarities that matter, it's also the differences, and those differences can point to important lessons and aspects of the text, right? So, If one of these Exodus themes, it doesn't have one of the elements, or it switches it around, or it uses a different word, then that might actually be a clue to something that is trying to be communicated uniquely in that story, right? [00:13:00] So, you know, it's not that, Each of these is, it's just the same thing over and over and over, but they all enlighten something unique. And so if you take one of those things out, you might be taking out an important aspect of how we see God working in salvation history. [00:13:21] Caleb Lewis: Yeah, absolutely. I mean, just to give you a good example, you have Lot, for instance, where he is Part of the family that is the elect community, but he also leaves Abraham and distances himself from the elect community he has his own fall narrative and I'll go into that in the book and Yet he finds himself in the midst of a couple of exoduses and so we can talk about one which would be Genesis 19, his exodus out of Sodom. And in that I mean one big thing that we see is Yahweh's care for someone who has distanced themselves from the elect community. [00:13:55] We also learn about how Yahweh listens to the prayers of his people because we're reminded at the end of that story that Yahweh did this for Lot because of Abraham's intercession. He remembered Abraham and gave him Exodus. So just in that story alone, there are a lot of small things that are varied or are added elements to the story, such as Abraham's prayers. [00:14:18] We have, Lot who is, again, like I said, not an elect one. That's a variation on the theme. And so, yeah, again, we just see God's care for even those who have fallen, who have sinned, and God's care for those who his elect ones care for. And again, we see this culminating ultimately in Jesus, who as being part of his family, he intercedes for us. And, you know, we are fallen humanity, but God cares for us. And that pastoralist just has a lot to say. [00:14:47] Carey Griffel: And so lately I have been talking a lot about exile and how that is so embedded into the themes and aspects of what we see in Genesis. And in my episode on the structure of Genesis, when I was talking about ancestor epics and how these kind of show, there's a reason why we have the repetitive Stories, and it, like, each one has something unique to say, and it's a little bit of a different variation. [00:15:15] But they're not just there because scribes messed up, or editors messed up. Like, there's a reason it's structured like that. For anyone interested, I think that's episode 56 that I talk about the actual structure of Genesis. And so in that episode, I talk about the book Rethinking Genesis, and this is where Dwayne Garrett puts out the idea of the ancestor epic cycle. [00:15:39] And he talks about the major theme of Exodus being like alienation. So at times it's that alienation is due to the choices of people. Or usually it's due to the choices of people, right? And sometimes it's due to other elements at play that influence people in certain ways. Like, for instance, you talk about Abraham and his first fall narrative, where he leaves the land because of a famine. [00:16:14] We can read that, and we can wonder if He's being faithful in that, or if that's kind of a neutral story, but you place that as a fall narrative. Do you want to kind of explain that and unpack that a bit? [00:16:27] Caleb Lewis: Yeah, sure. So we have this all kind of starts at the Tower of Babel. The call of Abraham is part of the Tower of Babel story where humanity, they, they continue furthering their fall and Abraham kind of finds himself in this ruinous state. [00:16:42] He's in a place where humanity has been judged and cast out. There's a lot of nuances to that story, but for now, we'll just say that's step one of our exodus. Well, this elect one gets called, Abraham, and he's told to trust in Yahweh and to come to the land that Yahweh will show him, which is going to be the place that's, that's Yahweh's dwelling. That's his land. [00:17:03] And there's also some subtle markers in chapter 12, in the midpoint of chapter 12 that would allude to the Garden of Eden. And so, again, just subtle little markers there with some certain sacrifices, some trees and hilltops and language that is used. So. Go check that out. But yeah, so he comes out. He's a new creation as he is called and set aside. [00:17:24] Maybe we should talk about new creation in a minute, but he is made a new creation and then brought to Yahweh's space. He is commissioned to be the one who is going to be the instrument of blessing to the nations. And then on our pattern, there is often an act of disloyalty, which requires another Exodus. [00:17:42] And I think here that throughout the story of Genesis, there is emphasis on staying in the land. Now, there's a couple of exceptions to that, such as when Jacob is told, yeah, go to Egypt. That's a good idea this time. There's a couple of places where something is a bad idea a couple of times and then something turns into a good idea. So, I think again that that's just another marker that says this is still part of the, leaving the land is a bad thing because the promises are tied to the land. I think that that does point towards Abraham leaving the land as an act of distrust. And it puts him in a place of exile where he and Sarah need another exodus. [00:18:17] Carey Griffel: And that's when we get the first story about the sister wife, right? And, That whole problem with pharaoh there. [00:18:25] Caleb Lewis: Right yeah. So while they're down there in Egypt, Sarah is... so Abraham's wife, and I think that's significant as well, his wife gets basically taken into pharaoh's house. And now we have the elect community trapped under Pharaoh. [00:18:40] And so that should sound familiar. That's one of the exoduses that is very often called out. And it is noticed very, very readily, even by readers who are unfamiliar with Just biblical literary structures. And so, the Lord brings her out, they acquire a bunch of wealth, and animals, and servants, and come back as a mixed multitude, just as happens in the exodus of Israel. [00:19:01] And In that story in particular, just something that we learn is that, you know, his people just really messed up here. Even if you want to argue that Abraham was okay to leave the land, he ended up selling out his wife. And so that, in and of itself, , that's a fall for them. But yet God continued to defend his elect people and to continue acting for the cause he started in Abraham, which is to bring about a chosen seed that is going to redeem humanity and be that serpent- crushing seed from chapter three. [00:19:31] And that's, that's something that should be mentioned that I haven't said yet, is that all of this is in service of bringing about that redemptive plan. All of these exoduses are for that goal. The exodus seems to be throughout the book of Genesis, and I think throughout scripture, the exodus is the means by which God delivers on his redemptive promises. [00:19:51] Carey Griffel: There is so much in that, that I could just talk about with you all day long. Yeah, like because this really impacts the way that we see the whole structure of Scripture and what its purpose is, right? So many of us Christians look at Genesis 1 and Genesis 2 and Genesis 3 and we go, well, this is all about God telling us this scientific way that he created the earth. [00:20:20] But really, when we're looking at it in this theme of exile and Exodus and how those kind of connect together, which we could talk a lot about how those do connect together in Either flowing from one to the other, or kind of as two sides of one coin, sometimes, maybe. But you know, it's like, you know, if you understand what's going on in that theme, and you apply it to the rest of scripture, which is about, The creation of the nation of Israel for a specific purpose to bring out that redemption and that's why we have The seed of the woman and the seed of the serpent and that interaction there. And by the way, I love how you describe all of that because so many people go into that narrative and they go Well, it's about DNA and bloodlines and it's like no, that's not what this is about. [00:21:17] This is about the picture of things that cycle through time that need to be resolved and that are resolved. And they're resolved in a particular way in this entire stream of thought throughout The literary structure, but also, you know, through literal salvation history. So it's not an either or between choosing whether the Bible is just a literary book and Choosing whether it's historical. Like we have both things going on, but they're married in a really particular way. [00:21:50] So yeah, let's go ahead and talk about new creation especially in light of the original creation because a lot of people get confused as to why Genesis 1 starts out the way that it does, and I've talked a lot about that, so probably most of my listeners are really familiar already about that, but that really does have this Exodus motif. [00:22:15] Caleb Lewis: Yeah, so one thing I think that should be brought up is just, what is the idea of creation in the Bible? And I'm sure I think you have mentioned him ,John Walton, he goes a lot into the concept of what is called functional ontology and you know, big words for any who may not have heard that. But what does that mean? [00:22:34] Well, Israel and. Her neighbors, including the biblical authors in this group, they didn't primarily see creation as a material process. Yes, they realize that there's material involved, but what they're looking at more is you're taking something and forming it for a particular purpose. It's being is wrapped up in what it's made for. [00:22:56] And so in each of these exoduses, there is a theme of new creation either through, first of all, actually the world being made or in Noah's story, destroyed and remade. Or we have people who are being named, who are being set aside for a new purpose. They're taken out of some larger group. And then set over here and shaped for something new, just like a lump of clay. You pinch a piece off, you take that, you shape it, and now it is something new. This is no longer a ball of clay, it is now a pot. And so, that is a piece of new creation. And I think that is what biblical creation often has in mind. [00:23:33] It's not necessarily about creation ex nihilo, but it's about the creation of a new people for God's to help rule alongside him. That's what we see in Genesis. And after that, after the fall, it's about new creation of a people who can redeem humanity back into that status. And so, this is more about the creation of commissioning of kings and representatives and those who are going to display Yahweh's honor and draw the nations back to him. That's what creation is about in the Bible. [00:24:06] Carey Griffel: Beautifully stated. Now, there is one point about your book that really stood out to me and maybe I saw it wrong. I don't know. So, during the description of the Exodus for Genesis 1, In your book, you do a really good job of mentioning, like you point out these different steps of the Exodus as to how they apply to each passage and each narrative, right? [00:24:31] But in the original creation, you didn't mention step number two, which is Yahweh sees, hears, or knows. And so I'm really curious why you didn't do that. I have my own suspicions as to why you didn't, but I'd like to hear from you. [00:24:47] Caleb Lewis: Okay. Well, maybe you've noticed something that I, that I missed. That's very possible. [00:24:52] So but no, I think in that story, I don't in particular see anything that draws on that step. It doesn't seem to me that there's anywhere where he comes to see or know or hear of a state of ruin, but rather the, the chaotic waters, they are already the state of ruin. And so in the beginning, there's just ,the waters, the Tohu, Vovohu, Wild and Waste land, and Yahweh there. And so, I don't know that there's maybe anything to come to know of. It's just, that is everything at this point. Unless, maybe you found something that I didn't. [00:25:25] Carey Griffel: Well, see, that's what I was kind of thinking that you were thinking about. [00:25:28] And that makes sense. But at the same time, we have the repetition again and again and again of God seeing that things are good. So it's kind of a reverse of the idea, it seems to me. Like God normally sees the ruin, right? And sees the plight of the people. And then he comes to do something about it or give them their exodus. [00:25:56] And in the creation narrative, it seems like that's already there. It doesn't point out that God notices it, except that he's hovering over the water, but that doesn't really use the language. But when he, he does see over and over and over, he sees that it's good. And so it's a reverse of what was in the beginning, right? [00:26:18] We had the ruin already, and God is now seeing that it's good. He sees that it's good over and over and over, and every time he does, that's an instance of God seeing that it's overcoming that thing, right? So it's kind of not really the same thing. So I don't really blame you for not having that in the what you're talking about But it's so it's kind of like a reverse if that makes sense. [00:26:46] Caleb Lewis: Yeah, that's that's a really good observation Actually, now I want to go back and look at all the occurrences of the word see and see how it's applied because you know, I, I don't know offhand, but that seems to me, it could be compelling to say that, okay, in the beginning, God is making things and he sees that it's good. He sees that it's good. He sees that it's good. Later in the story, the things that he's seeing and hearing and sometimes it says, remember in that same step in the motif, but he, what he sees in here is ruin, chaos. Tohu Vavohu again. So I could see that being a reversal where God has created good. And then continually humans create ruin and death. And that's what he sees and is in the process of trying to restore. [00:27:29] Carey Griffel: Right? And what's interesting is, in Genesis 1, where it says that he says it's good, he doesn't say that in absolutely every step. There's some things where he doesn't say it. And that's really, really interesting to me, because it seems like where he doesn't say it, and we'd have to actually go look and take the time to go look, but where he doesn't say it, it seems like that's not as necessary. Or, it's not the, how do I even want to say that? It's the point that Every time he says it is a very clear instance of this is going to cause and help human flourishing, right? So the whole direction of the text is to create something that is appropriate for human flourishing. That's the problem we have, and that's the problem that God is going to overcome in his functioning and ordering of the cosmos, basically, right? [00:28:27] Caleb Lewis: In the second act of creation where he creates the expanse that's the one where it says like, okay, It doesn't say this is good, and I've heard a lot of scholars discuss how at that point, there's no net positive, like, humans can't live in the empty space, they need the dry land, so at that point, nothing has been necessarily done to further the existence of humans, so, This one's not good, it's just okay. We'll get a couple extra good down the road instead. [00:28:53] Carey Griffel: Okay, so I'm glad you mentioned that. So, because another thing I wanted to ask you, and this is kind of its own subject and a bit of an aside here, but I'm really curious what you think is So you talk about the Exodus, but you also talk about the two goats motif from the Day of Atonement, which we're not going to get into in this episode. [00:29:13] But one thing I've been exploring and wondering about is if that can be applied to the spiritual beings that God has created, His heavenly family and the human family, right, as the two goats motif. And further, if the separation of the waters above and the waters below, If that might actually be seen as something that is supposed to be possibly temporary in time, like it's not supposed to really be there, like we're supposed to be joined with the heavenly family. [00:29:49] And this is kind of a hint for that. What do you think about that? [00:29:54] Caleb Lewis: Well, as far as the the two ghost motif applying to the heavenly and earthly family I think I would definitely need to do Some more work and looking throughout scripture there and see how how the theme continues. Because really one of the difficult things about this project is obviously I limited the scope to Genesis, that was enough work for me. the two goats motif itself is, clear in, in Genesis and then it's been pointed out by some scholars up in Leviticus a couple of times, obviously the day of atonement and we'll, we'll talk about that. But throughout scripture, it's not been widely noted up until you get to Jesus. [00:30:27] I think there are some places where I have suspicions, but I haven't looked at a full study of where that motif occurs throughout scripture. And so I do wonder if there could be something where it gets applied to the heavenly beings and the earthly family. But I know there's, with the motif, you're going to be expecting that one is drawn into Yahweh's presence and possibly associated with a sacrifice. [00:30:51] And the other one is going to be cast out. Not necessarily punished, but cast out. I know you've had some people on here talking about Leviticus and how to understand those sacrifices and proper understandings of atonement. And so Yeah, I guess I would need to to see that a little bit more. I guess that would make sense since Azazel is in Second Temple literature understood as the leader of the spiritual rebels. [00:31:13] And so maybe there's something there. I honestly can't give you a positive or negative quite there, but that's a really interesting thought. [00:31:20] Carey Griffel: Right. There's a lot to that. Believe me, I've really thought deeply and tried to look at both sides and I haven't really come to a conclusion yet. So there's a lot there. [00:31:30] Caleb Lewis: Yeah, yeah, yeah, if you have any any thoughts or conclusions you come to, I, I would love to hear that. But what you said about the expanse and the separation that's not supposed to, you know, not supposed to be there in the future, very possibly. This is actually one of the, I haven't preached many sermons, but this is one of the few places I've preached on is in 2 Peter where it talks about the the sky burning. And so what do you make of that? Is that, you know, is that atomic bombs or what's, what's going on? Well, in that in that ancient near Eastern worldview, where we're inside the little bubble in the vast cosmic ocean, what Peter, I think is seeing there is he's seeing the top of that bubble burning up and dissolving, disappearing, and then the separation, that barrier between God's space and our space, between heaven and earth is now one. [00:32:13] It was separated, so on that side of it, I think, absolutely, there are a lot of places where we see heaven and earth are supposed to come together. They're supposed to be one space, and that, that was part of the Eden ideal that got lost after the fall. [00:32:26] Carey Griffel: , yeah, or it was just a temporary thing, and that's why God doesn't declare it to be good, because it's not fundamental to what he's creating for our flourishing. [00:32:39] Caleb Lewis: That's a good thought. I had not thought about that. That's very interesting. Yeah, the, the Rakia that he creates, I don't know whether you understand Rakia as the experience itself or as the The solid dome that goes over top, yeah, that's perhaps viewed as like, Hey, this is, this is okay for the moment, but this is a barrier between me and my human family. [00:32:56] So this isn't good. This is okay. [00:32:59] Carey Griffel: Right. Yeah. Very interesting. Yeah. I love it. Yeah. And, and this is the kind of stuff I love because it's so missed in a lot of Christian circles, like we go from Genesis 3 onward into the purpose of Jesus and the purpose of the eschaton. But I think we should start at Genesis 1. I think that's really where it starts. [00:33:20] Caleb Lewis: Oh, that's the science part. That's not.... [00:33:25] Carey Griffel: right. Yeah. Another interesting thing that you mentioned or hinted at was the idea that the plants and animals coming from the ground was also another indication of separation, even though it doesn't use the actual term of separation. Could you talk a little bit more about that idea?, [00:33:47] Caleb Lewis: Yeah, yeah, and a lot of the functional ontology stuff, the new creation stuff, the concepts themselves, and the stuff about Genesis 1, I'll just say I'm stealing directly from John Walton, and Genesis 1 is ancient cosmology, so if you want a very Long and thorough discussion on that, check out that book. [00:34:05] But yeah, so we see in the beginning there's just the, the waters in the Tohu Vohu land there, and God is, is separating the, he's separating the waters, he's separating the land up out of the waters, and then he's taking humans and plants and animals all as part of this, it's all part of the Tohu Vohu land, this wild and waste a lot of your translations will say Formless and void. [00:34:28] If you hear me saying wild and waste, if you haven't read Robert Alter, then you have no idea what I'm talking about. So the formless and void land that's in a state of ruin, he's taking that lump of clay, essentially, and forming it into new things with new purposes. The trees are brought out and they are given the purpose to provide food and to bear seed. [00:34:50] Just like the animals are brought up and they're made to produce after their own kind. Humans are set aside out of that lump of clay made from the dirt. We're the dirt creatures and we are set aside to rule the earth. And so all of this is not about atoms popping into thin air, but about God taking what is in a state of ruin and then shaping it into something good for a new purpose. [00:35:13] Does that answer your question? [00:35:16] Carey Griffel: Yeah, and it kind of leads into the idea that you've presented about exile as actually being part of blessing. And I think that seems to kind of correlate and mush together the concepts of exile and exodus. [00:35:32] Caleb Lewis: Yeah no, I think that absolutely happens in scripture. [00:35:35] I mean, the first thing that comes to my mind is way later in the canon, but in Acts, I mean, the people are dispersed and that's what causes the gospel to go forth. We also see later in Genesis when Jacob is told, Hey, this time it's a good idea for you to go down to Egypt. They're going to a place of exile. [00:35:51] It's framed in an Exodus motif in, in an Exodus frame. But, they are going into an exile where God is going to bless them. And then we also see, just like in Genesis 12, we already talked about how Abraham, he fails, he goes out of the land, he self exiles, and ultimately he comes out of it blessed, he comes out of it with a mixed multitude of people and additional riches. [00:36:15] And so there is a, I think, a continual theme throughout scripture where, even what you have worked for evil, God has worked for good. [00:36:23] Carey Griffel: Yeah. And so even like with the Tower of Babel, or as you say, the Tower Babylon, which I like saying it that way because I get a lot of flack from how I say Babel or Babel. [00:36:34] I don't even know how I say it. Like, I don't know. Whatever. It's pronunciation. What can I say? Yeah. So if I say Tower of Babylon, nobody's going to complain about that. [00:36:43] Caleb Lewis: There you go. Except they're going to say, no, it's Babel. [00:36:45] Carey Griffel: Right. Then they're going to complain that I got it wrong. That's not what it says. [00:36:49] Caleb Lewis: Right. [00:36:50] Carey Griffel: But I like how you do that because it absolutely connects to the whole concept and theme of what Babylon is and what it Means to the people of God. And so, you know, one thing I'm kind of going to be looking at more in depth, because you can give points either way, is whether or not the tower event was an exodus or an exile, whether it was a punishment or a blessing. [00:37:16] And as we can see, it can kind of be both because you can go into exile in order for blessing to happen and you know, the question of, was one of the problems actually that people were congregating together and that's not what they were supposed to do, kind of a thing, you know. That's very connected to the flood narrative and other ideas there, but yeah, I think there's quite a bit of ambiguity around the story of the tower, right? [00:37:51] Caleb Lewis: Yeah, there is. And, and I actually cite an article in my book and ultimately I, I kind of come down a little bit ambiguous on what they were doing. I think the results are clear and the intentions are clear, but as far as how many people groups were there was it all people groups, is it all people are having the same motive or there's maybe one or two people groups who are kind of oppressing the rest. [00:38:13] It's kind of left ambiguous, or at least I think the data we have now isn't good enough to make me conclusive. Maybe someone else feels differently, but yeah, I think there is some ambiguity there. I think the exile in that particular story, I think it, My opinion is that it is going to be a punishment or something to thwart what the humans are doing. [00:38:34] But again, that puts the world into a state of ruin, out of which Yahweh, we have seen consistently, makes into something good. And so Really, putting something into a state of ruin or pushing something into a state of ruin really makes that thing moldable clay in God's hands again, is I think what this motif teaches us. [00:38:53] And that's why we even see in the prophets, the prophets go out to the wilderness to await an exodus because they know this is the place that God can turn into the garden. He's done it before a hundred times over. [00:39:04] Carey Griffel: So not every single one of these exodus themes has anything to do with what we would consider the fall, right? Or, as many of us here in the podcast and other places talk about the three falls, we have Genesis 3, Genesis 6, and Genesis 11. And the reason those are pointed out is because they are connected to not just human falls, but also spiritual beings who are involved with the situation. [00:39:34] [00:39:34] Carey Griffel: And so as I was thinking about that, and as I was reading your book, And looking at these themes of exile and exodus and falls and all of these things, it's really interesting to me that in each of the three spiritual falls in Genesis 3, Genesis 6, and Genesis 11, we don't have any explicit covenant with people before the fall happens. [00:40:04] We have the covenant with Noah, so you could say that there's a covenant before Genesis 11, but that covenant isn't specific to what happens in Genesis 11, right? So, there is something going on with Adam being given tasks and being given some sort of command, right? But it's not explicitly stated as any kind of a covenant, like, particularly. [00:40:31] And, so, it's really interesting to me how the spiritual falls seem to stop after we get an actual covenant with Yahweh, with Abram. And I'm just, that just really tickled my fancy in reading this and thinking about it, because, you know, you think, well, there's multiple falls, and they kind of cycle together and they make things worse, but we don't get to any real hope for anything happening until Yahweh says to Abram, I'm making this covenant with you and I am going to be the one to be fulfilling it instead of relying on you to fulfill it. That really struck me while I was reading. [00:41:15] Caleb Lewis: Yeah, absolutely. I mean, Adam, he is commissioned and then Noah, he is also commissioned. [00:41:20] And by the time we get to Abraham, well, humans have had two goes at it by themselves. And so this time Yahweh says I think what's going on here, he's saying like, look, you guys aren't going to get this done. And so you guys are just the same as you were before the flood. So this time Abraham, I'm not commissioning you to do this stuff. [00:41:36] I'm going to get it done for you. And you're going to be the instrument in my hands to redeem humanity. I'm not going to rely on you and wait on you to crush the serpent yourself. I'm going to bring forth a serpent crusher from you. [00:41:48] Carey Griffel: Now that doesn't mean there's no conditions attached to the covenant. [00:41:53] Which I think you bring forth, you know, I hear a lot from other people that the covenant with Abram was completely unconditional. And I get that point because it is God who's going to be fulfilling it. And He's not relying on mankind. But that doesn't mean there's no stipulations whatsoever. [00:42:13] Caleb Lewis: Absolutely, yeah. Really there's a theme of the test running all through Genesis. I think that falls into it. Me and Nate actually just talked about this and we putting it out soon. But in that we have, so if Noah never built the ark, Would he have been rescued from the flood and would the promises of Yahweh been fulfilled of like, Hey, you're, you're going to survive, survive in the ark? [00:42:34] With Abraham, hey, you need to go to the land of Canaan and in that land, I'm going to bless you. And so again, I think that's part of why going down to Egypt was fall, but If Abraham decided, I'm not going to Canaan, I'm staying here with my family, I don't really want any deal with you, I don't want in on your promises, well then, we're not told, so we, we shouldn't we should be a little wary of thinking hypothetically, but let's just say for the sake of argument, Yahweh would have said, okay, fine, I'll go find somebody else from Shem's line, one of your cousins, to give this promise to, and then we'd all be the children of somebody besides Abraham. [00:43:08] So yes, it is entirely, I agree with what you're saying that it is entirely God's grace that is doing this to me. It's, it's a gift at that point. He could have said, okay, look, I'm just wiping you all out. But he's tied himself to say there's gonna be a son of a human that's going to be the Redeemer I'm sticking with this particular Genealogical family and so he's gonna carry through on that. [00:43:28] But at the same time, it's not completely a one way street. He wants to have human partners who pass the test and are loyal to him. And I mean if you set us up to be Kings of creation to represent him to expand the goodness of the garden that he made, Doesn't it make sense that he wants us to be people who will look for wisdom in him, Not in the tree of the knowledge of good and evil [00:43:53] Carey Griffel: Absolutely. Yeah, and so that really kind of parallels with what we see as we keep reading because We wonder a lot of times... like the New Testament Puts forth Abraham as like this Paragon of Virtue and, you know, also David, and then you look at David and you look at Abraham and you're like, well, they're not perfect. [00:44:16] They messed up. They did these things that were wrong. we have the situation with Sarah and all of these other things, but every time that happens, Yahweh steps in and he says, okay, I'm going to still lead you. I'm still guiding you. I'm still going to, in different ways, make up for your faults, and even bless you because you've messed up, which, like, to me, that's more of a sign of the greatness and sovereignty of God, that He can do that, rather than Making sure all of the chess pieces line up exactly how he wants the game to be played and there's no variation on that whatsoever. [00:44:57] There's no choice in humanity, and I just don't see that. What we see is Genesis is just replete with this again and again and again. Like he could have killed Adam and start it again. Okay, let's just try again with another man. But he doesn't. He comes to Adam in the garden and instead of killing him on the spot, which seems to be what would have happened, seems to be the suggestion of this is the result. [00:45:27] He doesn't. I think there's a great bit of mercy in the giving of the garments, in the exile, in taking them away from the tree of life so that they can't become like gods just live like this forever. [00:45:41] Caleb Lewis: Yeah, absolutely. I mean, like you said, the garments is, I think that it is a re commissioning of Adam and Eve in their role. [00:45:48] And so, I mean, that is absolutely a grace. And so, I mean, to look at this from the perspective of That this is not just all pre programmed, history is not pre programmed by God, but it is grace because look how many times we've messed this up . So with Adam and Eve, you get the next generation immediately after their fall. [00:46:07] And then after Cain and Abel, it's immediately the next generation. Well, you get to Abraham and he gets the chance to mess up and go through multiple exoduses where God keeps working with him. We get to see how God interacts with not people on a generational level, but how does God interact with one chosen person throughout their life? [00:46:24] And we see them mess up and then stay faithful and then mess up and then stay faithful. And we see how God continues to refine them, to rescue them, to, to bless them, to set them up to be part of the tool of redemption And Brings them to a place where they pass the test and are a loyal representative, priest king, and part of the family of Yahweh. [00:46:48] Carey Griffel: Right, and as you're talking, I'm thinking, well, the first fall of Abraham, when he goes down to Egypt and he's interacting with Pharaoh, who is seen as a god, that could have been put as another spiritual fall. If it had gone a different way, but it's not put that way. And that's fascinating to me, especially in light of the idea of covenant and what that means for God to make a covenant with mankind and how that really is going to play out in like a real way, not just the same as it has happened before, like time and time again. [00:47:29] Caleb Lewis: Right, right. And I do think, now that you say it , in between a couple of exoduses of Jacob, and it's actually in a brief pause on an exodus that Jacob goes through they bury the idols that they brought with them out from Laban's house, the teraphim that Rachel steals and whatever other paraphernalia they may have, and a lot of commentators will look at that and also see the exodus of Israel and see, you know this is probably the author making a jab at Laban's gods, and, you know, they're, being sat upon and then buried. [00:47:58] And so, again, we see at least some literary pointings towards spiritual victory, spiritual victory over the gods. So it becomes less pronounced throughout the rest of Genesis, at least explicitly, but I think it still carries through and shows up pretty big in the actual Exodus. And so it's definitely part of the pattern of redemption that we see in the past and then we look for in the future. [00:48:23] Carey Griffel: Right. you know, a lot of people ask me, what is the point of looking at the divine council worldview and what does it matter that we have these ideas of spiritual beings in the Bible? Well, you know, it's, very hard to see this kind of real spiritual warfare that's going on in Genesis and in Exodus and other places, unless you have that concept in your mind that the ancient person had. [00:48:47] Right? You know, the reason that John Walton says the things that he does about the divine counsel, whereas he talks a great bit about it and he affirms that it was a thing for the ancient Israelite, but he kind of shies away from saying things like, well, the gods couldn't actually challenge Yahweh. [00:49:08] And I think, you know, that's a really good caution to have. But the thing is, the gods could challenge Yahweh's people, and they still formed this real threat to them. Which is why we have the whole episode with the exile. Why we have the prophets coming, and why we have this over and over and over this theme of you guys really need to be loyal to Yahweh. [00:49:33] And all of that can kind of wrap up into what we see of Jesus coming and how he's going to be fixing all of these problems, right? Like the problem with the spiritual beings, leading people astray. The additional problems of, like, physical death, you know, things like that. , all of that wraps up in Jesus. And if you take any of that away, you're missing a piece of this beautiful mosaic. [00:50:00] Caleb Lewis: Yeah, I mean, the spiritual beings challenging Yahweh is It's much like an ant challenging a boot, but all the same they can and they do. [00:50:07] And also it gets more complicated. We don't know entirely just on this side of reality, so to say, even though the Bible gives us a lot of clues, but Yahweh has tied himself to a certain people and it portrays Yahweh not again as say the divine programmer where he just changes the code and everything blips into place, but he is portrayed as a King with emissaries and angels and all these. With a host, an army of warriors. And so we see a spiritual conflict that is actually substantial, you know, in Daniel, where the Prince of Persia withstood, Michael. We see all throughout the book of Deuteronomy and Numbers where there's some more subtle, but still present, discussion of how gods are being worshiped and leading people astray or prophets of other gods are doing that. [00:50:49] And even in the New Testament, you know, the idea of the rebel Gods in the old Testament carries through to how Satan works in the church. And we have the spirit of the antichrist, which is, you know, again, spiritual warfare and it's those who are denouncing Christ, those are what John calls, Antichrists. [00:51:09] And so, there's still spiritual warfare behind what we even see in the physical here and now. And, like you said, Jesus conquered that on the cross by disarming them, even though It's a persistent theme through scripture and yes, if you don't understand it it's not going to, you know, make you not a Christian, but it's going to help you so much understand what Jesus did to a new depth and to understand, really, what in the world are the prophets in the Old Testament or anyone else talking about? [00:51:35] Is God bigger than, is bigger than, than Baal? Is he bigger than Mickey Mouse or is he bigger than somebody who actually poses a threat to humans? [00:51:42] Carey Griffel: Right. You brought up the Antichrist theme from Revelation that really kind of shows what the problem is, right? It's not that the people of God have to fear the Antichrist, because we don't. [00:51:54] But the theme of the Antichrist and, Whatever that is going to end up looking like, right, it does play a part in affecting humankind. and that's going to affect God's purposes in creation. Because God isn't just creating robots who are going to end up doing exactly what he wants, they have free will, and they're going to be able to have a real choice here. [00:52:20] And so if you don't see that there's a real choice, then you don't see that whole dynamic playing out. And it really is playing out in the world. And it's part of why discipleship and firmly having that discipleship root and understanding of scripture within our churches is so very essential. [00:52:41] Caleb Lewis: Yeah, God interacts with the ways and he works through us a lot, but the understanding in the whole Bible and today is, it's never been, we just need to throw our hands up and say, God's got this. [00:52:51] I mean, he does, but he uses us to do it. It's his spirit who works in us and, and doesn't turn us into, like you said, into robots that are able to then, to then just do whatever he dictates, but rather they empower us to do what we were supposed to do as, Kings and priests with our minds and with our hearts. Not not what the programming says. [00:53:13] Carey Griffel: Right. Well, and if we did just throw up our hands and say, it doesn't matter, that would be like Abraham just saying Lot can do whatever he wants and I'm not going to intercede for him. [00:53:25] Caleb Lewis: I'm not going to Canaan. [00:53:26] Carey Griffel: Yeah. [00:53:27] Caleb Lewis: Yeah. I'm not, I'm not building the boat. [00:53:30] Carey Griffel: Right. [00:53:30] Caleb Lewis: I'm just gonna stay in the flood. [00:53:32] Carey Griffel: Like I'll just let Lot go and kind of do his own thing and he's made his choice. So whatever, like Abraham actually intercedes and As he does that, he's affecting Lot, who isn't quite as loyal to Yahweh, perhaps, as, as Abraham is, but through Abraham's action, Lot is then blessed still, and he is still included into the people of God. [00:53:58] And so that kind of can parallel how we can see our view of our interaction in the world. It seems like even if We're interacting with people who are ultimately going to reject God, our interaction with them is going to give hope that they can come to Yahweh, and they can come and follow Jesus. [00:54:20] And so, Like if you're just gonna give up and say, well, God can do it, like, then you're giving up on the other people around you and not trying to be God's hands and feet in the world, you know, the actual body of Christ. And that's why I like to describe the church as the body of Christ, because when people talk about church, it's like, are you talking about the institution? Are you talking about this or that? And when I'm talking about, I'm trying to bring out that we literally are the imagers of God and the imagers of Christ, and that matters very, very deeply in the world. It's not that we're trying to escape. It's that we can actually have boots on the ground and interact in the world as God's representatives. [00:55:05] Caleb Lewis: Absolutely. I mean, and yes, this is all cased inside of an ancient understanding of kingship and monarchy and things like that. But the people, His emissaries, his messengers, they are extensions of the king. And so when it says that the king is completely sovereign over X, Y, and Z, we see in Zechariah, he has messengers that go out that do his bidding, that report back to him. [00:55:29] And so again We could get very meta and philosophical and talk about what all this might mean, but we at least need to recognize that this is all cased in an ancient understanding of kingship where, God is a king who doesn't have kind of a crystal ball in his mind, but he interacts with the people he has created to make his kingdom function in a, good way. [00:55:49] And I think just one thing that'll go along with what you just said is that we've talked about how to be created is to be set aside for a new function, for a new purpose in God's kingdom. And I think something that we should think about is that the Exodus, it can be easy to, you know, just say, we go through an exodus and say, okay, finally, peace. We're, we're delivered. We can rest, we can relax. Well, we need to remember that an Exodus is not just a deliverance, but it is the beginning of a commissioning. [00:56:15] And so, to be delivered, to be rescued, that's not the end goal. That is just the beginning of being a functioning member of God's family and God's kingdom. [00:56:25] Carey Griffel: And you do mention the fact that the church is that kind of a new creation in the same way. So we are given literal function and actual task in the world, and we're made new in order to follow out with all of that. [00:56:42] Caleb Lewis: Yeah, absolutely. Yeah, just like I mean, again, I like recommending good books, but I know you have as well. [00:56:47] But G. K. Beale The Temple and the Church's Mission, I mean, goes into that really well about how we're just a continuation. As Christ is the new Adam, we are corporately the New Adam is we are corporately Christ's body, and so we do bear that same commissioning of priest, king, prophet, go and tell the nations and teach them to do likewise. [00:57:04] Carey Griffel: Yeah. So I guess it was yesterday that I was talking with somebody about the idea of what it means and how we can see the idea that Adam was supposed to, Originally, go and take Eden out to the entire world, right? And that's kind of hard to see if you're only reading a surface level of Genesis, and if you're not steeped in these themes. [00:57:31] But I think as we start understanding Adam as prophet, as priest, as king, and we see what that looks like in the rest of Scripture, and we see what that looks like in what the church is supposed to do. Then it becomes very clear, at least to me, How that interacts with the original intent of Eden and the purpose of creation. [00:57:56] Caleb Lewis: Yeah, absolutely. I mean We're not given all the details in the first couple chapters. But the thing that's really cool about this is you see that the beginning is patterned not only throughout Genesis as a bunch of new exoduses, but Adam is patterned ... again, Adam as Israel by Seth Postel. Check that one out as well. Another good one. [00:58:16] But yeah. And so the story of Israel and the story of Adam are meant to be kind of overlapped and read back on top of each other. And that's, I mean, even as you see a bunch of references to Mesopotamian mythology and a bunch of stabs at it throughout the first few chapters there. [00:58:30] You can see like, okay, we, we have someone who is, whether you want to say writing or editing this in some sort of exilic or post exilic period where they know about what happened with Babylon and The first stories of the Bible are meant to be, I don't know if metaphorical is the right term here. I feel like it's probably a lazy word, but I'm going to use it for now and just say that it's kind of a metaphorical representation of Israel. [00:58:52] Israel is supposed to see Adam and say, oh, that was supposed to be us. And we fell just like him. We're in the same exile that he is. And the whole goal is, we're still waiting for that promised Davidide, that promised seed of the woman who's going to crush the serpent and bring us back to the garden. And so we can take some details with some methodology and some scrutiny, and we can read the creation story and Israel story back and forth on top of each other, because that's how Israel was supposed to read it when they first picked up the book. [00:59:21] Carey Griffel: And that's also why, like, a canonical reading of scripture can really help us, I think. I'm a big fan of reading things in context. And you might think that that means you have to read the first chapters of Genesis and leave them in the primeval history, right, like there's no meaning beyond that, but the way that scripture is crafted and put together means that those chapters are actually leading into the rest of the whole narrative of the Hebrew Bible, and of course the entire scriptures as we read it as Christians. [00:59:57] And so, yeah, biblical theology is a strange thing because you're doing multiple things at the same time and it can get kind of confusing for people who aren't used to that kind of deep study. You know, where you have the context of Genesis here, in relation to Mesopotamia, and in relation to Egypt, and in relation to, like, the literal primeval history, that time period. Then you have to look at it in the time of Moses, you have to look at it in the time of the The prophets and the exile, and then we can read it from a Christological lens. [01:00:33] Caleb Lewis: we can't just read it and try to find the okay, there's a coffee mug verse. I'm going to take that one out, that's my verse for the next week or whatever, but yeah, we were supposed to understand it I think as a whole. I hope that I didn't make the case for that , in my book, but I'm hoping that just the intricacy and the connectedness of the literary structures will at least suggest that reading to the reader. [01:00:52] And as you see this on repeat, I'm hoping that as you go forward in the Torah, forward in the prophets, forward in the New Testament and so on, you're going to see that a lot of the Bible is the same thing on repeat with new nuances trying to again, further inform the hope that we have in Christ, what he did in the past and what he will do in the future. [01:01:09] Carey Griffel: Yes. And that is really why we should be reading this. It's fascinating. It's like, , I see multiple people quite frequently saying, Well, if Genesis 1 and 2 aren't literal, then what is the point? Why did they write it? Well, all of this is the point. Jesus is the point. The church is the point. [01:01:29] How we're supposed to live and understand God in relation to humanity and what that means for our actual purpose in life. All of that is the point. And that's way more exciting than science, in my opinion. [01:01:43] Caleb Lewis: Absolutely. Yeah , it's such a deep, rich text and we can disagree on how literal it is or not, but let's get to the narrative point of it. [01:01:52] What's the literary intention of it? Let's at least try to agree on that and figure out what it is. [01:01:58] Carey Griffel: Right. Right. Because it's the meaning of the text, the messaging, like Dr. Heiser would say, the theological messaging of the text. What is that? And how do we get to that? And it's not really that easy for us to just read it on the surface and get it. [01:02:15] Because there are such deep, deep threads and archetypes and patterns and just an entirely different worldview that we're not used to seeing things as. it's not easy. So I'm not trying to, place blame or say anything against the people who haven't really been exposed to that and who aren't used to it. [01:02:37] Because, you know, that's the kind of thing that you have to get through deep study and good teaching. And I'm so excited that these days there is more and more of that. we have books for people that are very accessible, very easy to read, like your book, so that people can start really getting their heads around this different type of worldview. [01:03:01] Caleb Lewis: Absolutely. Yeah. Thanks. I'm I'm looking forward to that. And that's what I want to do. I mean, there's I just want to offer the encouragement that if this It seems like, you know, oh, gosh, that that's a lot to know. And I know your audience, they're used to data. So that may not be something that's scary, but for those that may feel that way, it's like, there are some things that are necessary to understand the nuances of a text, but a lot of the things that you'll find undergirding the text are going to reinforce and encourage probably what you can, what you can see elsewhere. [01:03:29] And so there are some things that They are important to know, but don't despair and think, well, I'm just never going to understand my Bible, can never learn from it, and can't understand who Jesus is without this. [01:03:40] Carey Griffel: Yes, I love that. And that's a thing that I try to bring out. It's not that knowing this is essential in some sense that it's going to entirely upend the way you've already read it, because that's not the case. You can quite easily read scripture and know who Jesus is, know what God's doing in creation and in salvation history, but this is like this underlying beauty. [01:04:06] It's like you can look at just the surface of the water. And you can see the beautiful lake, or you can look deeply into the water, and you can see the beautiful depths that are underneath it. And I think that's what we're doing here, and I think that's what your book is doing for people, too. At least I would hope that that's what your book is going to help people with. [01:04:28] So, yeah, very good stuff. Thank you so much for this conversation. It's been really A blessing to me and enlightening and I hope everybody else has enjoyed it. Could you please tell everybody where they can find you and where they can find your book and anything else you'd like to end with? [01:04:46] Caleb Lewis: Let me end with real quick just to say, In our next conversation, this is gonna really climax in Joseph, along with another motif that we mentioned, the two goats motif. And so that is going to have a lot of biblical significant significance, a lot of typological significance. It's really going to give us a pattern of Who Christ is. That's not just trying to reach for Christ under every rock, but it actually is based on the authorial intention in the literary structures. And so hang out if you want to hear some more about that. That's where it gets really fun, I think. [01:05:16] So where can you find me? Well, the Bible in Context podcast that I do that is One Avenue. And in that there are some methods to reach out to myself or my co host, Nate Young. Also We have a Facebook group, the Bible in Context Podcast, Facebook discussion group. And so reach out, join the conversation we'd love to get to talk to more of you. And thanks for listening to this and thanks for listening to Genesis Marks the Spot. [01:05:39] Carey Griffel: Well thank you again, Caleb, for coming to talk to me. For all of you listeners, if you're curious to hear more, he's just told you all of the places you can find him, and check out his podcast, Bible in Context. And I also happen to know that you can hop on over to Answers to Giant Questions for another recent interview with Caleb. [01:05:59] T. J. Steadman has been getting a great deal into the context of the flood as Exodus, So I'm very excited to hear that conversation and don't forget to check out Caleb's book, Through the Waters, which is available through, I think it's through Wipf and Stock and at Amazon, right? [01:06:18] Caleb Lewis: Amazon. There's a lot of bookstores that have picked it up now. So you can find it on Barnes and Nobles. Really you can find it in a lot of places. So hopefully it should be easy to access. [01:06:26] Carey Griffel: Great. Awesome. Thanks everyone for listening. I appreciate those of you who share the episodes with other people and thank you especially to those of you who support me financially. You guys absolutely rock. [01:06:39] And if you're interested in finding out more about that, you can go to my website at GenesisMarksTheSpot. com where you can find guest profiles, blog posts, my artwork, and It's really nice reviews as well, and I appreciate those of you who do review the podcast. That greatly helps the algorithms and people finding the content. [01:07:00] All right, well, that is it for this week, and I wish you all a blessed week, and we will see you later.