Study Can Be Fun and Games! - Episode 049

Carey Griffel: [00:00:00] Welcome to Genesis Marks the Spot, where we raid the ivory tower of biblical theology without ransacking our faith. My name is Carey Griffel, and today I am joined with Cindy Beaver, and we are going to take an interesting tactic for this episode. We're going to talk about fiction in the service of our biblical studies. Cindy mentioned it to me, And as I was thinking about the topic, I realized sometimes we don't think about it. many of us who grew up in the church, who are especially of a certain age, We probably watched certain old movies that maybe are not the most accurate historically. And so, we kind of ask ourselves, what do we do with that? A lot of times we have a knee jerk reaction that, oh, those are bad now because it's bad theology. I'm never going to watch that again. And [00:01:00] there's no reason for us to even bother with it anymore. And there might be some nuanced ways we can kind of look at that. Maybe you don't want to go see those old movies again, but maybe you can watch them with fresh eyes after you've learned even more about the Bible. But in addition to all of those old things, we also have a lot of , newer types of fiction that can really help us understand the biblical world. So, I want to kind of talk about how we can use those things in order to get in the head of the ancient person in order to understand the world of the Bible better. And if we understand the world of the Bible better, Then we can understand the words of the Bible better and we can understand how those can also apply in our lives How are their lives different and how are their lives actually exactly the same as ours and sometimes fiction can really help us to Get our minds into those types of ideas and questions. So welcome Cindy[00:02:00] Cindy Beaver: Hi, Carey. Yes, I'm excited to talk about our subject today , as we were just going back and forth, it's like, Oh, that would be good. Oh, that would be good. So yeah, it's going to be a fun conversation today. Carey Griffel: What do you remember being the earliest Christian fiction, we might say, that you were exposed to when you were younger? Cindy Beaver: I would have to say, the one that most frequently pops into my head is the Ten Commandments with Moses and, Charlton Heston. I mean, is there any other guy that could play Moses? I don't think so. The big spectacle with Yul Brynner and all of that. I mean, Cecil B. DeMille did not spare much expense on that particular production. and then I remember there was the Davy and Goliath kind of the claymation figures. That was more of a cartoon as opposed to my son watching VeggieTales when he was little, but but those would be the two Biggest ones , I also remember [00:03:00] probably, oh, it had to be in the late seventies when there was some kind of a documentary movie about looking for the lost Ark and then, in more recent years, we've had Noah with Russell Crowe, which is much more based on first Enoch, than the Bible because there's the, Tales of the Watcher, you know, you see some of those watchers, although it's kind of interesting how they get handled and it was a really big uproar within the Christian community of whether or not , this is something that should be watched yeah, and what's interesting is any of those, I think you just have to come at it from the perspective of this is entertainment that Hollywood has put out. Well, this is not something that your pastor or, you know, even a seminary has for the most part put together. [00:04:00] It is meant to appeal to the masses. That still doesn't mean you can't take something from it, but I do look at it as This is fiction, and it is not necessarily intended to be biblically accurate. Carey Griffel: Well, the whole thing about art versus history or reality or truth, you know, and there's kind of something to be said for the art portraying something that is harder to understand if you're just giving the historical facts, I think. I remember when I was little, we would watch the Ten Commandments movie every Easter, and I remember just watching it, and it's such a big story. And I think that movie does a really good job portraying how dramatic the situation was. It must have been. in my mind, when I'm a little girl and I'm watching all of these crazy things happen , it's like, Trying to picture how that might have happened in my own [00:05:00] life, it's like, wow, these are really big things that would have made a really big impact to the people at the time, and so I think movies are really good for that. So even if they go kind of overboard, like that Russell Crowe movie, just getting that intensity. And getting the ideas out sometimes there's something to be said for that. Cindy Beaver: I agree. And I do think that there are times where by watching something visually versus reading it,, it hits different parts of your brain. And I think that's part of why the Bible project does what it's does with its animation and things like that, because even people that don't necessarily speak English or don't speak English well, they can still take things from it. And so I do see that this is again, something , to help us 2, 000, 3, 000 years later to visualize what was it like for these people and how could this have happened? You know, I think there are some productions that do a much better [00:06:00] job with being closer to being culturally accurate and biblically attuned. But I do agree with you in that we can always take something away from it. I know when I watched another movie, also kind of based on the Exodus, the Prince of Egypt and, and that showed Moses as a general and, you know, leading the stuff. And then you see before he really gets his he's been called, but he goes back and he's not, it's not like the 10 commandments, but he's working with those israelites kind of in a undercover, you know underground thing. And he's training them how to shoot arrows and how to fight. And that's how he gets Joshua and those teams, but because these slaves didn't know how to do any of that stuff. And it's like, well, that makes a lot of sense that, you know, Moses probably did have to do some of that , and he was [00:07:00] in the royal family and, potentially had these opportunities to be a general and to do some of this leadership stuff. So he had some of this skill that he could train these people, how to be more regimented and not just, the slave mentality, but it's time to take it back. Now, did God step in and, and work those miracles and stuff like that, but they still had to fight the Amalekites. Well, how would they have been able to do some of that if they haven't been trained by Moses and taught how to use different, warring tools that they had back then, , whether it be bow and arrow or swords or hatchets or whatever they used back then. Yeah. So I, I mean, I thought that was kind of good of, just something that you didn't necessarily get from the Ten Commandments. So a different perspective, but it was like, and, and I think that comes much more from Josephus writings where that [00:08:00] came from, but it, gave me something to think about of what could have happened. Did he know how to read and write? Well, yeah, he would have known probably Akkadian, you know, and he would have written on the little things in the cuneiform. You know, I always think of them as big fat graham crackers with, with writing on them. But again, you can get something out of these movies. I wouldn't go there for my theology, , but I can get a cultural understanding or just see it in a way that adds some color to what you would have been reading in the Bible. Carey Griffel: Well, I think that's largely the point of art in general. you know, it gives you something that you are going to be thinking about it in a different way than you didn't think about it before. You can ask new questions. And as Bible students, we can go into the story and we can go into all of these portrayals and we can say, okay, which parts are accurate? [00:09:00] Which parts aren't? And that in and of itself, just kind of equipping us with those questions and that desire for inquiry. Is a super useful thing for the student. Cindy Beaver: And I don't think that we necessarily need to, use only one form of media to do that. Look at us doing a podcast. So people are listening to our voices, you know, and and my mom listens to what she calls the Jesus radio station, you know I mean, there's all sorts of different ways that you can learn and pick up things. But you do also have to be discerning. Carey Griffel: Yes. Yes and that's one reason why you want to take your discussion of the art you're exposed to and talk to other people about it And have a discussion and say what's good, what's bad, how do we kind of sort those things out, and you know, in the future maybe our children will then become equipped to make better art because of all of these discussions [00:10:00] and things that we have helped them think it through. You know, I just think that group discussions and not tossing something out just because, oh that's inaccurate, we're not going to even bother with that. I think there's something wrong with that because you're missing out on a framework of thought. That you could have had, but that you are now disregarding. Cindy Beaver: Yeah, you know, and I think too, don't throw the baby out with the bathwater. Just because a bunch of your friends or associates are talking about a particular movie unless you totally trust them, but you can take their input and then you go see it. And see what you think. Have the additional perspective. my husband with the Da Vinci Code book and the movie, he was just like, this is absolutely not coming into our house. And I was just like, well, I just read the book and I've seen the movie and stuff like that. And he's just all in an uproar because it's, you know, it says this and [00:11:00] I'm like. I, I'm looking at this as a work of fiction, you know, it's to me, it's an action adventure and I love Tom Hanks and to see him acting that way. And so it just so happens to be talking about things that are. You know, church related and church history. But I am not saying that, Mary was married to Jesus and that there's a line of things, you know, that that's just a plot twist of something else. And we've seen this kind of thing happen before that that theme was used. Back in the seventies as well for different books and things. And you didn't get your undies in an uproar then. So what is the deal? And, and I mean, so many people were just so upset about it and Bible code and all of this. And I'm just like, Carey Griffel: well, and people are now talking about that stuff. People can now understand things like Gnosticism [00:12:00] better because of this thing that they have seen and been exposed to. when all of these things are like, okay, look, here's how it's wrong, and let me show you how it's wrong, then suddenly people are not going to be, well, some people are always going to be going down false paths, but you will have the vast majority of people exposed to something, heretical ideas and things that they didn't know about before, and look, here's how church history has dealt with that, and then suddenly it's shedding light on The truth of church history and how church history has dealt with things. So suddenly we have all of this knowledge that we didn't have before in our brains and I kind of think that's a good thing in my opinion. Cindy Beaver: Yes, I agree. You know, it did take a bunch of, scholars coming up to the plate and going, Hey, Hey, Hey, Hey, Hey, Hey, you know, this is this. And like you said, you know, this is Gnostic and this is coming out of, other things. So it, [00:13:00] does provide an educational opportunity. It's those people that just take everything at face value that are going to have the most difficult time, but. If you just take this as another input, or like I did, you know, I was like, well, this is just fiction. I'm not going to get too, entangled in it. You hear about the grail, you hear about these things and you can look a little bit more in and learn, you know, the bits and pieces about it, but it definitely does not have to be something that your faith is shaken. And all of a sudden, you know, you're going to leave the church because of it. I mean, come on, then , your faith is really weak if that's going to happen to you. Carey Griffel: And a lot of times, it's not an either or situation, sometimes you can make a decision for yourself and say, this is my boundary, and I don't want to consume that, I don't want to be exposed to that, and you know, that's absolutely fine. We should be completely [00:14:00] free to make those choices for ourselves, for our family, for our children especially, you know, all of that. Absolutely, we need to be equipped in order to make informed choices, but a lot of times it's not an either or thing. Like, for instance, everybody loves the show The Chosen. Cindy Beaver: Me! I love it! Carey Griffel: Yeah! , there's so much that just glows from that. And you hear people talking about Christianity, people who are maybe Christian, but they don't usually talk about Christianity, and suddenly they are. Exposure of things that people would not be exposed to. But I have seen critics of The Chosen in various forms. One of those , that catches my eye because of my particular religious background is, Oh, it's an LDS company who's doing The Chosen and it's just steeped in [00:15:00] LDS theology. Okay, so I admit I haven't watched all of The Chosen. But I did go and I explored all of those claims, and I'm like, no, you're reaching too far. Just because there might be some loose connections in business and in like the sets and things like that, that doesn't mean that suddenly it's some conspiracy of the LDS church, okay? Cindy Beaver: Right, it's not. They did make use of, they made use of a movie set that the LDS Church had built. And Angel Studios may have some affiliations with LDS, but it's not backed by them. The Chosen is all crowdfunded, and the script writer is Christian, and they're consulting with Christian scholars so people will, just throw it out that, oh, no, this is, you know, LDS so it's no good, [00:16:00] and that is, patently not true. Carey Griffel: You need to use your own discernment and actually dig into the individual claims. What is being said in the show that people claim is LDS? And there might have been one or two things, but it was pretty low key, and your average Christian, your average person watching the show It's not going to change your theology, okay? You're not going to be duped into bad theology by watching The Chosen. I'm certain of that. But another thing that I've seen people mention is this concern that the producers of the show are emphasizing Jesus's humanity too much. Like, they don't emphasize his divinity. And the way I've seen this presented is somebody asked one of the producers or the main creator, why aren't you showing the transfiguration? That's a pretty important part of Jesus's life and that should be [00:17:00] portrayed in the show. And his response was, I don't know why we would. Why is that important? And, so, then you're like you don't understand how the transfiguration plays into Jesus's life and how that displays his divinity? And, I get that concern, I'm like, that's kind of weird, why wouldn't you understand the importance of this really important part of Jesus's life? But do you take that and just run with it and say, Oh, that means that they're denying Jesus's divinity entirely? Cindy Beaver: Right. , and I have watched every episode that's come out thus far. And I cry through chunks of these episodes. I mean, to me, it's a wonderful production. But it is a theatrical production. What I would say is it's culturally accurate, the costuming is fantastic. The sets are fantastic and they're [00:18:00] teaching you about what Roman society was like and what different things are that are going on. I think culturally and historically, they're doing an awesome job, but they're also adding flavor. For example, in The Chosen, Simon Peter's wife's name is Eden. Well, we never have her name at all. And we see them interacting and stuff like that. But to me, that just adds some flavor of, wow, think about it. He did have a wife. What was it like for her to be left behind, you know, when he had to go on his missionary journeys, or what was she thinking? And, you know, so they've given background to each one of the disciples with as much as they could from the Bible, but they've taken liberties. I would call it plausible that it could have been this way. There's no reason that it could not have been that way. So that's where, yes, it's [00:19:00] fiction and things are going on. But when it comes to Jesus and his divinity, it is in every episode. , there's always something special that's going on. There's always a miracle of healing, of him changing the wine into water. One episode, the disciples are all bickering back and forth about this. Well, in the meantime, Jesus has spent the entire day healing masses of people. And then you see, as they're all getting really crabby and sitting around the campfire being mad at themselves, you see Jesus dragging his physically drained body past them to go to his tent, you know to sleep. So yes, you do see his human side of it But the fact that he had the ability to heal the hundreds of people that he healed that day is there and the most recent Season you see him walking on water. That was a show that was actually a scene' that the [00:20:00] Producer did not even want to do either because he didn't want it to look fake And contrived. Now, how are you going to do it? Well, they figured out a really clever way to do it. And I'm not going to spoil it for you if you want to go and see it. You know, it's out there for free. All of these episodes are free of to go see. And that's part of what the whole purpose of the Chosen is, is to make it free so that people can learn about Christianity and see what Jesus could have been like. But there's definitely representations of him being more than a human. And people are seeing that and recognizing it. You see it with Jairus and the wanting his daughter to be healed. You see it with the woman that has the flow of blood. You see it where the paralytic is let down from the roof and is healed. And how that caused The group of his friends to start following Jesus. You see it with [00:21:00] him at the woman at the well well, I just love it because it's visually stimulating. It's putting all of these stories. You see him reading. In the synagogue you see him going to a different synagogue and healing the crippled man's hand, and they get all, you know, upset about him having done this and, you know, it, it's just, it's just wonderful. I can't say how wonderful it is. The feeding of the 5,000 they filmed that, you know, how is that gonna happen with just a human being? I wish they would do the transfiguration, and there's no reason why they couldn't have figured out a way to do it, but it's not just a human man that you're seeing. And they are not interacting with him as just a dude. Carey Griffel: Well, yeah, and the fact that Jesus really came to the earth. He really interacted in a [00:22:00] culture with real people, and being able to see that in a visual way, that touches people's hearts in a way that other things can't or wouldn't , I mean, not that we can't get that same effect when we're reading the word, when we're listening to somebody expound upon the scriptures. And these kinds of stories and things, but in our culture, it makes a whole lot of sense that we should be seeing some of these things being produced for people because this is how they're interacting with the world already. They ought to be able to see the Bible in the way that they're used to seeing anything else, you know, in their lives. Cindy Beaver: And like I said, I like that they are being so very careful with the scenes, with the costuming to make it as authentic as possible. You know, cause I even look at the Roman soldier costumes and it's like, Oh, so that's what those [00:23:00] belt buckling things, how they would have worked, you know, or a chair and, and, and how it was a folding chair type of a deal. You know, it's just, it's just really quite fascinating to see what was going on, what a tax collector booth would have looked like. , and those things it's right up my alley because of how much I like to get into the culture. Carey Griffel: Well, and our ability to portray things like that and to understand them is so much better even than when I was younger, I think, because we've learned so much about the culture. And we've learned that, you know what, people need to know these things and it shouldn't just be locked up in that ivory tower so that the scholars are the only ones who have all of this information. Everyone should know about these things that they're learning in the, the historical record, because that's going to color the way that we study, that's going to affect our understanding of the Bible. It's going to [00:24:00] enhance our Bible reading. Cindy Beaver: Absolutely. I must say that when I'm reading now, I do picture, the certain actors as this is Simon Peter and this is his brother and, James and John, the sons of thunder you even see in this in the chosen, you see that Zebedee winds up selling his fleet of , fishing boats, and getting olive trees so that he can start making oil and things like that would be something to support the ministry and the women like Mary Magdalene are helping him with that since they don't get sent out on the road, you know, so it's just interesting to see, how the women are able to help and support the ministry, how things could have been done. It was, it's really cool. Carey Griffel: Yeah. That's super interesting because you do see in the new Testament, quite a big chunk of influence from women. And I think that it's because of that culture [00:25:00] of the time. Meeting in homes. Well, of course women are going to have a lot of power within the home, a lot of say about what's going on, and so their influence in the early church was quite huge. Cindy Beaver: Well, or Joanna, the wife of Chusa. Chusa was Herod's steward, which means he's the main dude at running the household. He's in charge of all the finances and all of that. Well, Joanna, you see her in The Chosen, and you see her... Coming to hear the Sermon on the Mount. And she's in a, nice wagon that has, nice coverings so that she doesn't kind of get sunburned and she has a special guard and all of this stuff. But you also see her going down into the jail to talk to John the Baptist. And that's how she first found out about Jesus was through John. And, as she's going down there and the guards are, What are you doing? Well, he's just somebody that's interesting, you know, and she has to play a role. But then you see at one point [00:26:00] when she's, I think, at the Sermon on the Mount, she slips off this gorgeous purple Shawl, and gives it to the women, sell this for the ministry. And we know that purple fabric was very expensive. So you see her starting to fund and at another time you hear that Joanna has sent them more money and stuff like that. But so you see how it's done. But what I like about it too, is that then you see Joanna is embedded in the house of Herod. And now you start to see Luke and the gospel writers use Joanna to, learn about the banquet where Salome danced and asked for the head of John the Baptist. This is probably where Joanna would be the source of when during Christ's trial that he was brought in to Herod and what Herod would have asked and stuff like that because Joanna had access to that Because of her status in that household. So, you know, and [00:27:00] it's like, whoa, I didn't even think about that I mean, that's the things that I love about it. Is it Wow, you know I didn't think about all these other players and all their details and all the stuff that they had going on and and so it It plumps it up for you. Carey Griffel: Well in watching a visual story it embeds everything into your mind in a way that other, just like reading it or hearing about it, might not. You understand the characters, you're going to remember the characters better, you know, and things like that. So the whole picture of scripture is going to be kind of embedded in your mind a little bit easier. Now, of course, you have to hold that a little bit loosely and not take everything that it shows you as, this is actually how it happened. And you know what, there's some room there for your own study to understand it a little better as well. Cindy Beaver: Right. And again, I do always keep in mind that this is [00:28:00] fictional but it's plausible because they are being so careful and they are consulting scholars and things like that. And they do definitely use passages from the gospels of, you know, the scenario and what some of the dialogue is going to be. Like Nicodemus meeting with Jesus at night and the different things that are going on. It's like, all of a sudden you start, you know, for God came to the world that, you know, is just start reciting the Bible passage , as the, actor is saying it and stuff like that. Which again, it. It could be out of the actual chronology of time, because we don't know exactly what was happening. But again, it just adds a layer of dimension that you can use. This is not going to be my anchor point. But it, certainly helps my understanding and helps me to think more [00:29:00] about, huh, these characters and what it would have been like for them. And what, how would, what would Zebedee have done now that his sons and his partners have gone off. I mean, is he going to hire more laborers or what? What would he have done? The fact that in this case, one of the possible things is yeah, he sold all his ships and he also followed as well. Yeah, it's interesting. Carey Griffel: And one important question as well is how can we be discerning in the kind of fiction we're picking and how we're going to view that. It's different to go to the Chosen and realize, okay, they've worked with actual scholars here. They've done investigation about, okay, what would they have been wearing? How would the houses look? These things were actually researched and talked about. In order to produce the show. And that's, like, different from, say, the Russell Crowe movie about Noah. [00:30:00] They weren't doing that kind of work. And that's not to say they weren't looking into anything at all, because they obviously were. They actually pulled through some random things from various types of ancient literature and other types of scholarly things , in order to make that. And then they went their own direction with it, but, you know, so we can use discernment in deciding what's going to be a higher level of accuracy and what's not, you know, and I think that's often not really that hard , for us to determine, I think. We tend to get a little bit too nitpicky about things sometimes, like, Veggie Tales versus the David and Goliath show that you were talking about kind of thing. Cindy Beaver: Or even, you know, Dan Brown, is he a theologian? You know? No. What is this genre? Where are these scholars? And you know, I have come across some really good fictional works that I'd like to [00:31:00] share bits and pieces of today, but they are written by biblical scholars. I've got one by Ben Witherington, one by Bruce Longnecker, and another one by James Papa Andrea. All of these are professors of biblical studies and they are also historians that are writing different books about the time of well, the first century there's two of the books are a week in the fall of Jerusalem and a week in the life of Rome. And then the book by Bruce Longnecker is the Lost Letters of Pergamon. And that particular letter is, it's really a fictional, I mean, well, they're all fiction. But the Lost letters of Pergamum is kind of a what if and it's of a, guy that is mentioned in one of Paul's letters and he is exchanging letters. This Roman person who is an inquirer into Christianity [00:32:00] is exchanging letters with Luke, the evangelist. And it's just interesting. He gets a copy of Luke's gospel. And he's, reading bits and pieces and then asking some questions and then going back and forth. And then you learn more about his life. So it gives you the flavor of the culture and this guy is a wealthy dude. So it's interesting to hear what his thoughts are about this. The back and forth of the exchange of letters between him and Luke. It's, an, a nice vehicle to tell the story. And again, it's fictional, but it, because there aren't, there aren't these letters, but it's also based on what it was like in that era. And then there'd be other little snippets of now this was going on in his life, you know as he's living in Pergamum and he's starting to attend home churches. And he's actually gone to two different ones. And one is much more interested in just Jesus [00:33:00] and the miracles that he performed, and they want to know more about Jesus as a wonder worker, whereas the others are much more following along with the way was and , doing the studying and, the various sacraments participating in them. So. But the man even runs into a tenant farmer of property that the rich man owned, and he lost the farm because of poverty. And yet he's a Christian and the man is still happy and content, even though he's in a, not a great situation financially because of his Christian faith and this and all. And, and it just makes the rich man, first of all, feel kind of bad for the way he's conducted business, but also amazed that this man is still happy and content because what's important is not the having of worldly goods, but having faith in Christ and his Christian living. So. it's really good. I mean, I learned a lot about him with the [00:34:00] client patron relationship. Also the week in the life of Rome has a lot to do there. That particular story is focused predominantly , on a man. Who is a client to a rich, wealthy Roman and how every morning he goes and he gets his coin for the day along with his instructions of these are the favors or these are the tasks that I would like you to do in this reciprocal agreement or this reciprocal relationship of I am your patron and I do these, and I have these expectations of you and I want you to do this for me and you know, how they go to the baths and how they go to different places , and then his wife is Christian and so he's, you know, merging into the Christian life and how is that going to change his interaction and impact his ability to be client to this patron and is that going to bring him jeopardy? So, I mean, these books are really fascinating. [00:35:00] A week in the fall of Jerusalem, , you're observing secondhand of. What's happening in those final weeks and how the Christians escaped to Pella , and what are their concerns the Lost Letters of Pergamum are still probably in that 70s, 80s time frame. The Week in the Life of Rome is in the 60s because Peter's actually present in this. He comes to one of , the house churches and preaches. So they're all , different places, different times. , and there's other books too in this week in the life of there's Corinth. There's one about Ephesus. So what I'd like to do is just read some selections from a couple of these books, or at least one of these books. We'll see if, how long that takes, if there's time for some of the others, but the other thing, in the Week of the Life of books, they usually have these little call out sections, like I'm going to [00:36:00] read about worship in early house churches, and then there's one about household religion. They've just marked out to give, as you're reading the story, which is fictional based, they have little history lessons embedded in the book. Carey Griffel: Okay, so like little sidebars so that you can Really get into the context of understanding what's going on Cindy Beaver: and they're marked out in little boxed areas So, you know that it's a sidebar as opposed to part of the story so I'm going to read the one first about worship in early house churches. Just as A conversion in the early church was not simply an individual decision, the group mentality of the Roman personality meant that worship also was not a simple manner of personal devotion. Most early Christians did not think in terms of personal scripture study or personal prayer and meditation. For early Christians, worship was more about celebrating the group identity as [00:37:00] people who gathered at the table of the Lord and who collectively identified with Jesus Christ as their Savior. The idea of a personal savior would probably not have made much sense to them. We don't actually know much about what music or singing was like in the early decades of Christianity. There may have been varying degrees of what might be called a hymnody on a spectrum going from rhythmic speaking. To in tone speaking, to chanting or melodic singing, the songs included in this story here were based on the theory that the Apostle Paul quoted hymns in his letters. However, there's a lot of debate among scholars about whether the quoted passages are in fact hymns or perhaps prayers. In any case, if Paul is quoting pre existing material, then the context of these songs or prayers is very significant since it represents the earliest Christian theological statements we have in written form. When we ask what early [00:38:00] Christian music may have sounded like, the question becomes even more complicated. No doubt the music of the first Christians was not very different from the music of the ancient Jews, but in a place like Rome, it may have also been influenced by Greek and Roman forms of music. We do know for sure that they did sing, and Paul encourages people to sing Psalms and hymns and spiritual songs. We just simply don't understand how Paul defined these three different types of songs or whether they were really three different things at all. Singing in the first churches was probably responsorial meaning a call and then a response with the leader singing a line, and then the people repeating it, or perhaps a soloist saying a phrase, and the people responded by singing Amen. Or. Praise the Lord or Lord have mercy. Eventually, the congregations would have memorized longer passages, possibly set to music, and then sung them in unison. Even if the songs were set to music, they did not have harmony the way our [00:39:00] modern music does. With different singers singing different notes based on chords. As far as we know, that type of singing did not happen until the Middle Ages. We also don't know for sure whether they use musical instruments or not. If the heavenly worship scenes in the Book of Revelation are a reflection of actual worship, then the early Christians may have used lyres, usually translated as harps. They may have also used panpipes. However, even then, the music was not so much an accompaniment as it was a guide for the singers. The instrument would simply play the melody as the people sang along. And so I'm also going to read about household religion in Roman society. So in Roman society, the head of the household, or the paterfamilias, was considered the priest of the family. He performed rituals of worship and sacrifice to several, often unnamed, deities who were believed to watch over the house and its [00:40:00] inhabitants. The priests of Roman religion wore a hood or covered their heads to prevent them from seeing bad omens. Bad omens often came in the form of lightning, or birds flying in an unfavorable direction, or other phenomena in the sky. The hood prevented the priest from looking up at the wrong time. Apparently, if the priest didn't see it, then it didn't count. Okay, many homes had shrines or altars and privately owned houses often had little idle niches built into the wall near the door. These shrines or niches held small statues of the patron god of the household. And you can think of the movie Gladiator with Russell Crowe again, and how he had those little figures of his family. That's the type of thing that we're talking about. Lares were the good spirits that watched over the house. And the shrine or the niche that held the bronze statue was called a lium. On certain days of the month, flowers would be placed at the shrine [00:41:00] and at family meals a small offering of food was put in the lium as a sacrifice and sign of trust in these unnamed gods, the pans were the gods who watched over the pantry or the storeroom. They were the guardians of the household's food and supply. Sometimes the penantes were depicted in the form of snakes, after the Greek version of these gods. And in fact, finding a real snake in the pantry was thought to be a good sign, since snakes kept rodents away. Some households also had shrines to Vesta, the goddess of the hearth as well as Janus, the two headed god who looked both into the past as well as into the future. This god was thought to guard the threshold or doorway and watched over the comings and goings of the family. For most Romans, religion was a matter of participation in good citizenship. Meaning keeping up the ritual for the sake of the God's protection. What we might call personal devotion was not part of the traditional Greco Roman religion, [00:42:00] but did come into Rome with the mystery religions from the East. In time, Christianity was seen as one of these suspicious mystery cults that advocated personal religion. That is, religion based on individual or small group conversion and commitment. Although many Romans were suspicious of religions based on personal devotion, they did have their own brand of personal belief, mostly which had to do with what we would call the occult, astrology, horoscopes. Fortune telling and magic. So that just gives you some historical background of flavor, of the type of information you find in these books. And so I would like to read now from , the fictional story. So at a Christ Follower's House. So a special kind of dinner was being put together just like they did every night, the families brought food to share. Two [00:43:00] disciples arrived with their children and apologized that they had nothing to bring. But the hostess assured them that this was what the agape was for. And someday they would have an abundance and others would come empty handed to benefit from their surplus. After the call and response, Lord have mercy, the host sat in front of the room and spoke. As you know, ever since our Lord Jesus ascended into the heavens, we have been anxiously awaiting for him to return as he promised. But it has now been 17 years and obviously he hasn't come back yet. Why he delays, we cannot say, but we find ourselves without most of our Judean brothers and sisters who know the scriptures and who heard Yeshua teach. Even most of the people who were in Jerusalem on that Pentecost day are now dispersed. And we hear that some of the way followers in Greece have even died without the blessing of seeing the Lord return. So, after speaking with Peter and getting his permission, I've started writing a biography of sorts. Okay, this is [00:44:00] Marcus the gospel writer Marcus, who's talking here. It's the story of Jesus and Peter and the other disciples. It's not finished, but I'd like to begin reading sections of it to you at our evening gatherings, so you can hear and remember the stories of what Lord Jesus said and did. The room buzzed with hushed excitement as everyone whispered their approval. Marcus opened a scroll and began to read. When Jesus left the synagogue, mind you, I'm not trying to write down everything that happened and it won't be in chronological order. It's just really a collection of stories about the things that happened during that time. So when Jesus left the synagogue, he went to the house of Simon. That's Peter, by the way, he went to the house of Simon and Andrew with. Marcus's throat caught as he tried to speak the name James, and everyone became silent as a feeling of melancholy hung over the room. Most of the group had never met the oldest son of Zebedee, but they knew that he'd been executed by Herod Agrippa [00:45:00] eight years prior. Marcus tried to suppress his emotion. James had always been good to him, even when he was a young boy, desperate to keep up with the men as they followed Jesus around and listened to his teachings. In truth, everyone was good to young Marcus, but James was especially kind to him, perhaps because Marcus's Hebrew name, John, was the same as James's younger brother. Or maybe it was because James knew that Marcus's father had died trying to protect John the baptizer from execution. Anyways Marcus cleared his throat and continued. He went to the house of Simon and Andrew with James and John. Simon's mother in law lay sick with a fever. They immediately told her about him. He approached, grasped her hand, and helped her up. Then the fever left her, and she waited on them. The group murmured with elation to hear a story of Jesus healing someone. A miracle, they said. But the hostess was silent, remembering the murder of James brought the doubts rushing back to her mind. How could the Lord let [00:46:00] that happen? She worried that someday that kind of danger could come to Rome, and then what? Would she lose her son? Marcus addressed the group. Do you confess with your mouth that Jesus is dominus? Yes, they said in unison. Do you believe in your heart that the Father raised him from the dead? Yes. Then you will be saved. After another prayer, Marcus said, Tonight's Thanksgiving bread was by Amphilipitas and his family from their home just north of here. Amphilipitas handed the loaves of bread to Marcus who held them up. Although we meet in different homes, in different parts of the city, we are one. And we are one with all way followers who meet in every city, in every part of the world. And so we share the one bread to remind us of our unity. He looked at Prisca. We remember that we are also one of those with brothers and sisters who should be here in Rome with us, but who are banished and scattered, like Prisca's father and mother, [00:47:00] Aquila and , Priscilla. Jesus said, I am the bread of life. Your ancestors ate the manna and the world inercy, yet they died. This is the bread that comes down out of heaven so that one may eat of it and not die. I am the living bread that came out of heaven. If anyone eats this bread, he will live forever. And this bread that I give for the life of the world is my flesh. Truly, truly, I say to you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood, you have no life in you. Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up on the last day. For my flesh is true food, and my blood is true drink. Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood remains in me, and I in him. This is the mystery of our faith. The Christos has died. The Christos has risen. The Christos will come again. Marcus led the group in the Our Father and then said, brothers and sisters, John the Baptizer, pointed to Jesus and said, look, here's the lamb of God who takes away the sin of the world. Now let's take some time to examine our [00:48:00] spirits and ask ourselves whether we have failed to obey the commandments of the Lord. He paused for a while and then went on. With that in mind, we confess our sins to the Lord. Lamb of God who takes away the sin of the world, have mercy on us. Lamb of God who takes away the sin of the world, have mercy on us. Lamb of God who takes away the sin of the world, grant us peace. Then Marcus held the bread up for everyone to see. Jesus said, Take this, all of you, and eat it. This is my body, which will be given up for you. Marcus held up the cup of wine and said, Take this, all of you, and drink from it. This is the cup of my blood, the blood of the new and everlasting covenant. It will be shed for you and for all, so that sins may be forgiven. Do this in memory of me. Here is the Lamb of God who takes away the sin of the world. Marcus broke the bread and began to pass the pieces around. Then three of the young men stood ready with their baskets. Marcus put three large pieces of the [00:49:00] Thanksgiving bread into the three baskets, and the deacons took off out the door to bring the bread to the other gatherings. That's how they would then share one common bread, was by the runners, bringing it to the other home churches. Then the group settled into a more relaxed posture and shared a meal of all the things the people had brought from their homes. And then as the meal was winding down, one of the women started singing and the others joined in. She sang each line and the rest of the gathering echoed. He is the image of the invisible God. The One who brings forth all creation, for all things were created by Him. All things have been created through Him and for Him. He is before all things, and all things are brought together in Him. He is the source. First to come forth from the dead, so that in all things He might be the ultimate One. For it seemed good for all the fullness to reside in Him, and through Him to reconcile all things to Himself. Having made peace through him. And [00:50:00] when the singing was done the deacons had returned, they lit some torches and took the leftovers from the meal out to some of the people who are known in the area to be hungry, and that's the end of this particular one. , and a lot of the stories are pretty much similar where they're sharing. A meal and then they are hearing someone speak or they could be reading a letter that was received or one of the gospels that they may have had a copy of and they talk through that, but you see, yes, there is the communion or Eucharist is being celebrated immediately. In the Fall of Jerusalem book, there is a mention of their worship service and how our worship here is a lot like that in Jerusalem. After all, most of us originally worshiped. However, unlike them, we do not worship on the Sabbath we worship on the day following. So, you know, that [00:51:00] here during 70 AD with the crisis, they've already started to switch to celebrating on the Lord's day. But you definitely see that a word is being shared, whether it's a letter or some people have some prophecy or some , message that they are sharing, you know, you hear Paul, when he's on his way to Jerusalem, that last time there was a prophet that had foreseen and things and was encouraging him to not go to Jerusalem because you know, bad things would happen. So those types of prophetic utterances were occurring through the Holy Spirit to various people. And that would be shared in the home church settings. And you know, occasionally they were meeting more days than just once a week. Others, I'm sure it depended on the situation. But I, I just like these books because it again, it puts it in the historical context. They're trying their best to incorporate what they know about the [00:52:00] culture into a story to, again, help us better understand and put , those cultural eyes on. Carey Griffel: We're so used to we have the scriptures in their entirety, right? And we forget. Just how much of scripture would have been embedded into their particular worship practices. I think Cindy Beaver: yes I mean they would have at least the those that came from Judaism. They would have had all the Psalms memorized As well as big chunks of the Old Testament But The early church fathers they talk and this goes into the canonization of the Bible You see letters where they, they're talking about these are the books that we read during our worship services. And that was kind of how the canon developed. And it was which churches were making use of the various books in their lectionary readings. They didn't call it that [00:53:00] back then, or I don't think they did, but it was not a bunch of men getting together and voting on which books would be in or out. But, you know, it was a matter of what, which letters did they get a copy of? And, you know, the Christians were really good about forwarding and copying. I mean the fact that we have books in the format that we have. , Christianity really pushed it because instead of a scroll, books and codexes were far easier to transport, far easier to produce. Carey Griffel: Yeah, you could have more together in one place. Cindy Beaver: And you could request a copy to be made and pay for it. That's in this Letters to Pergamum. That's exactly what this guy is, you know, wanting. He, he's going to pay Luke for a copy of Acts to add to his library. You know, so these things would have been there. But that's definitely something that is accredited to the Christian. Is their [00:54:00] affinity for wanting to have books. And it was not for personal reading books were meant to be read out loud. Nobody read quietly to themselves. I'm not going to say nobody. But, I mean, that was not the purpose. It was the fact that very few actually could read. But they wanted the consistent message to be shared. And so it would begin, at least with these circular letters and what the disciples were doing. They were sharing this and making copies and getting the books into the different people's hands and making copies. So that everybody would hear the same thing. Carey Griffel: Yeah. An actual use by the actual body. So it wasn't just the scholars sitting in their, offices somewhere trying to decide, now I think this one should be included because, but it was like on the ground worship of real congregations who are actually using these things in their practical lives.[00:55:00] Cindy Beaver: Right. And they would, like I said, they would order something. And so they would always want the entire collection of Paul. And we know that that was one of the very first things that got, that got assembled. I, again, I find it nerdily interesting, but, you know, some would only have one gospel, some churches. You know, it depended on who, could they, what could they afford and what had they encountered. Carey Griffel: Yeah, yeah, because these did have to circulate. And when you have a religion that grows as fast as Christianity did in the early times, it spread so rapidly and people were hungry for those things. But there was only a limited amount of stuff that they could have for each congregation. Cindy Beaver: But they also worked really hard. I mean, they, were missional from the beginning. And so they would carry new letters with them. And even if they didn't have a copy, there could have been a scribe locally [00:56:00] that could have made a, written down a copy for , that church so that then the traveling person could continue to carry that book on to the next spot and the next spot. And share. Carey Griffel: and as important as the texts were... This is still a largely oral society, so there was a lot of people who could remember a whole lot more than I can on any given day. That's how they had to live their lives. And that's why things were written the way they were a lot of times, so that they were More memorable, so people could memorize things that they would repeat them in groups. It was a very collective thing, unlike our personal, I'm just going to sit in my comfortable chair at home and read my Bible. That's not the kind of thing that they were doing early on at all. Cindy Beaver: memorization cues, the whole chiasic structures and things like that. The scripture as [00:57:00] literature was very, very, very much the case because it, it definitely had memorization and learning aids in there of Oh, the center of the chiasm is that, you know, this happens so I can remember these little bits here and then it's like, Oh, yes, there's going to be in reverse order. It's going to happen this way. So , they knew that and they picked up on it so much more easily , than we do. We're so used to being much more linear in our reading, in our thinking. Carey Griffel: That might be why certain types of fiction can be helpful to us, is that it can kind of bring us into that mindset. Cindy Beaver: Yeah. And so, you know, you had brought up earlier about how do we know what's good, what's quality, what isn't. You know, yeah, look at the reviews. But also I mean, I recognize Ben Witherington. I have a lot of his books his scholarly textbooks.[00:58:00] So when I came across his name as writing this fiction, I was like, Oh, huh. These fictional books do not have any bibliographies, but again, there is a series of seven of them. And they're all very reputable. These are by the InterVarsity Press. That's another thing is to look at who's publishing these books. The other Bruce Longnecker book is from Baker Academic. Those are, things , that you can also use or if it's something that's being taught at your church. Those are ways go on Facebook and ask one of us, you know. Have you read this? Have you seen it? What do you know? My goodness Facebook has been a horrible place for me to get exposed to far too many books. I have what is called CBAS, otherwise known as compulsive book acquisition syndrome. Because people that I trust are talking about and recommending books. [00:59:00] And... If it's a topic that I'm interested in or whatever's going on those, that's how I'm getting it. Carey Griffel: Yeah. Yeah. It's the case , with podcasts and YouTube, you can find many, many interviews with so many authors. So just listening to what they actually say. Do they sound like a crazy person, or do they sound like a reasonable person? What are their credentials, and how did they get their information, are they transparent with that? Is it just popular levels stuff that you shouldn't take seriously, hardly at all, except for just as a fun read? Is it too speculative, and they don't actually have a whole lot of reason for what they're talking about? Well, that's another really big thing, and again, You can read all kinds of stuff, but you should be discerning. And how much speculation are they doing? How much backing do they have for what they're talking about? And how do you [01:00:00] take what's useful out of it? Cindy Beaver: Or even the comments that are put out on like Amazon about the books or Goodreads and all the various different places where people will post a book review. Now, some of them, you know, again, you gotta have some discernment with those too, but that will give you, I mean, some people are really good about they'll give you the table of contents, they'll even maybe give you a brief summary of the different chapters of what's going on, what's good, what's bad you know, some people are paid to do reviews and things like that and they'll say, I got a free copy of this book and here's my review. So all of those different things are, ways. Spend a little time if you think that it's worth spending time reading, then it's worth spending a few minutes researching. Carey Griffel: Researching it yourself. And, you know, , it's great to ask on the group or ask somebody, but you also need to be able to do your own [01:01:00] due diligence. Not one single person is completely trustworthy in their opinion, like, nobody's infallible in what we think. So I really suggest getting the skills to be able to do your own due diligence. And it is just a matter of finding that practice and it's, it's kind of a skill. It's not something that you just can naturally do. No, is this book better, or is this book better? I can't really tell the difference, like, years ago, I remember trying to sort through that kind of stuff with materials, like, there's so much out there, and a lot of it is like, that sounds like a good idea. Sometimes you will even hear interviews by the author, and you'll think, Hmm, that sounds really good. Then you get their book and you start reading it and you go, I wish I hadn't spent money on this. So sometimes you will get to that point of, I made a mistake here. This is [01:02:00] not really what I want to bother with. And you know what? It's okay to not continue reading a book that isn't worth reading either. Cindy Beaver: Oh my gosh, you've given us permission. Thank you, Carey. There's always going to be more. I just think it's so magical, whether it's cultural and understanding that part. Or whether it's, understanding the theology behind these stories, , and all of that. It just never ends I am so amazed. Carey Griffel: And those are the things that make me think about fiction, how the Bible is like fiction. Not in the sense that the Bible is fiction, but in the sense that if you have fiction, if you have a well crafted story, it just draws you in and you, kind of want to live in that story. And so that's what the Bible is like. It's so interconnected, such genius writing, and so I think being able to do that in an [01:03:00] actual fiction book, sometimes that kind of takes a bit of the study pressure off of you, off of your mind. Like, if I'm reading a fiction book or I'm reading a really jam packed academic book, those take different kinds of mental energy for me. And so having, Bible based fiction to consume is a really good thing. Cindy Beaver: Yeah, I agree. Other fiction books that I think are really cool are the series that Brian Godawa has written. The Chronicles of the Nephilim and he's got a couple different ones. That's the one that pops into my head right now. He's definitely a divine counsel worldview guy. And he also writes appendices to these books. So he explains where he pulled all of , his theory and philosophy for why he wrote the story he did. I enjoy. Those books, they definitely again, they're fiction but he puts these [01:04:00] characters , and things in a really unique situation. I really especially loved his book called Jezebel with Ahab and Jezebel and Elijah and all of that. I just, that cultural setting was, and it's a standalone book. It was really cool. And then he's got a book about Moses. Same thing but that's another fiction writer. He is Christian based and he also is a friend of Mike Heiser that would, that and reading his appendices highly recommend those. Carey Griffel: Again, the ability to dig into the source material and the thought behind it, that is It's super useful to us. Cindy Beaver: Well, this was a bit different, but I really, really enjoyed the conversation. I think that people can make use of religious fiction. You do have to come , to it knowing that it is fiction, but that [01:05:00] does not mean that it's not necessarily based on what the scriptures teach us. And oftentimes they can bring a new dimension of understanding that you would not necessarily have gotten outside of a fictional story. Carey Griffel: Yeah. Thank you for suggesting this topic, Cindy. It's been a really good conversation. Cindy Beaver: Oh, thank you, Carey. I really had fun today. Carey Griffel: All right, that's the end of this episode, and I hope you enjoyed it. It was a bit more of a casual conversation and topic, but a fun one. There was a lot of fiction we could have brought up. So, come on my Facebook group and tell me what your favorite Christian fiction is. At any rate, thanks for listening and thanks for sharing my episodes with others! Thanks, too, especially, for my patreon and paypal supporters. You guys are awesome! Keep in mind that you can sign up for my newsletters on my website at genesismarksthespot.com and if you've done that and haven't gotten any, do check your spam folders as I know sometimes they get put there. It is going to be Thanksgiving this next week for those in the US, and lots of holiday stuff coming up for many people and I hope you all enjoy the season. I love the holidays...I'm not somebody who gets stressed out about it because I decided long ago that it's okay to not do All The Things. So if you get stressed out this time of the year, I highly, highly recommend...doing less. I'm serious. You don't have to do everything. Find what you enjoy and focus there and of course remember that we are celebrating the coming of the Messiah and that means rest and restoration for all of us. I hope you all have a blessed week and we will see you later.