Episode 37

August 25, 2023

01:16:32

Nachash: King of Monsters (Spiritual Realm, Part 5) - Episode 037

Hosted by

Carey Griffel
Nachash: King of Monsters (Spiritual Realm, Part 5) - Episode 037
Genesis Marks the Spot
Nachash: King of Monsters (Spiritual Realm, Part 5) - Episode 037

Aug 25 2023 | 01:16:32

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Show Notes

Godzilla in Paradise??  Continuing the series of the spiritual realm and sources of the spirtual "bad guys," Paradise Lost features prominantly in our thinking, even if we aren't aware.  Here we ask three questions:  Who is Satan: serpent, seraph, or dragon?  How did he get to be the head honcho of the bad guys?  And what does Paradise Lost have to do with it?  We get into the book of Jubilees, the book of 1 Enoch, and lay out in whole the narrative of John Milton's Paradise Lost.

 

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Episode Transcript

Carey Griffel: [00:00:00] Welcome to Genesis Marks the Spot, where we raid the ivory tower of biblical theology without ransacking our faith. My name is Carey Griffel, and in this episode, I'm going to be tackling about three questions. The first question is, who is the serpent of Genesis 3, and how do we kind of get to our understanding of that? The second question is, how did Satan become the god of this world, as he is described in the New Testament? And the third question is, what does Paradise Lost have to do with all of this? For a good chunk of this episode, I actually really want to dig into that story of Paradise Lost. I will be reading portions of it, I will be telling you about the story, [00:01:00] because I really want to explore with you just how deeply this story has affected our Christian imaginations. I've talked often before about how our imaginations really play their parts in the way that we define truth. Like we want to say that we believe in truth as this set of propositional facts, right? I believe this point is true and I believe this point is true and I believe this point is true. But in actuality, the way we frame our truth structures is much more akin to how we frame a narrative. And this makes a lot of sense when you consider just how useful our imaginations are. We have to use our imaginations in order to make data point connections between one point and another point. It's not always the case that the second point just naturally falls from the first point [00:02:00] in causality. Like, it's one thing to say that a ball falls off of our desk because we have pushed it. Because in that case, we see our hand, we see the contact, and feel the contact with the ball. We see the ball moving, we see the ball then go off the edge of the desk. And that kind of experience gears us up to making other types of more abstract connections. But the abstract connections aren't exactly the same as watching that ball fall off the edge after we have pushed it. Seeing how the serpent in Genesis 3 connects directly to the dragon in Revelation 12, that's not quite the same as watching that ball go from stationary to moving to bouncing on the floor. Somebody could come along and say, listen, a snake isn't the same as a dragon. You've got to be kidding me. Somebody else can come along and say, well, linguistically, there could be this [00:03:00] difference between the devil and Satan in the passage. That's actually a thing argued, that there might be two beings in view instead of one being. If Satan and the devil are two distinct beings, Then we might ask, well, which one shows up in Genesis 3? And how does Satan and the devil work together? What is that relationship like? Because when you get into the more abstract ideas that are more than just watching something happen right in front of your eyes, like the ball and your desk, there's usually many more points of connection that you could possibly make. And you have to be able to determine which ones are the correct points of connection. Now, I'm not one who personally thinks that Satan and the Devil are two distinct beings, but it is an argument that is made, and it's argued from a linguistic stance. And I just want to point all of these things out [00:04:00] because it's so much more complex then just A to B to C. So, who is the serpent in Genesis 3? Who is Satan? Is he a cherub? Is he a seraph? Is he a snake? Is he a chaos monster? Is he the big head honcho who is in charge of all of the other bad guys? I've touched on a lot of these points before, but I haven't kind of brought them all together in order to look at them all side by side and see what's the deal here. These seem contradictory, right? For instance, Michael Heiser makes a case that the serpent in Genesis 3 is a divine being and that he was a divine cherub or seraph, depending on how you're parsing and distinguishing those two things. But he was a Divine Throne Guardian who belonged [00:05:00] in Eden. Then you have scholars like John Walton who come along and say that the serpent was a chaos monster. Now, it's fair to see these two ideas kind of being contradictory or at odds with one another, right? Because the idea of the throne guardian is that this being belonged in Eden, like there was nothing amiss with his presence. The problem was he chose to rebel and instigated that whole process, right? Whereas this idea of the chaos monster, that's kind of more thinking along the lines of... The serpent sneaking into the garden and invading it from outside the garden coming in. So from that perspective, those are two different things, right? But are they really that different? It depends on how you're looking at the theme [00:06:00] of chaos and the idea of chaos monsters, right? So if a chaos monster is an ontological thing, like, that's a different thing that's going on here than a previously loyal royal being. But I personally think there's a better way to see what's going on with the theme of chaos. If we're thinking solely or primarily of the Chaos Monster as being that creature that was defeated at creation in Genesis 1, then why are we going to see the Chaos Monster again in Genesis 3? He was already defeated. It doesn't make sense to see him showing up in Genesis 3. Right? But chaos isn't just one single creature. The chaos monster isn't just one thing. And the reason we can say that pretty definitively is how the theme is used throughout the rest of the Old Testament, and [00:07:00] in the New Testament even. That's why it's better to think of chaos as a theme or a pattern or something that is going on that is against God, rather than, Hey, look, there's a chaos monster over there. Let's go chop his head off. Okay, we chopped his head off. We're done. Chaos is defeated. I mean, that happens in the work of Christ, right? He does chop off the head of the chaos monster, figuratively and practically speaking. But that's also an ongoing process, right? That's why we have that eschatological view of the already but not yet, the end times view of Christ is victorious, but he's also in the process of achieving that victory, both through the work of the body of Christ in the church and ultimately through his second coming and ultimate defeat of all of that. So, I don't think it has to [00:08:00] be an either or in this situation. I think that it could be a Divine Throne Guardian who is effectively the Chaos Monster. Just because the Divine Throne Guardian belongs there technically, if that being had these designs to thwart God's plans and instigate chaos once again into the world, which is just upending all of God's order, then he both belongs there and is also invading the space as that chaos beast. Because that's his motivation. That's his goal. That's effectively what he is accomplishing is that reintroduction of chaos. What I think we see in these first three chapters of Genesis are constant hints of the chaos encroaching and God [00:09:00] then imposing his order. In my previous episode where I dealt with chaos very directly, that's kind of the framework that I'm suggesting here, is that there's this spectrum that exists. And there has to be a spectrum, because we have a choice. We can either follow God into the light of his glory, or we can move away from God into the darkness. And the darkness, the waters, the wilderness, those are all the symbols of chaos. I mean, think of stories that we have today. Think of the narrative of Godzilla. Gojira! He's the chaos dragon, but he's there because humanity created him. So the humans who created Gojira are themselves agents of chaos, as well as just the actual creature. Anyway, so this is a [00:10:00] bit of the trickiness of getting into the context of the ancient world. We want to really clearly delineate these things and they're not clearly delineated because either they're blurred in the minds of the original audience. Or, these stories are just really long lasting. So at one point in time, the people thought in this kind of framework over here. At another point in time, they might have been thinking more along the lines of this other framework. And they're not contradictory, they're just different contexts themselves. But either way, the idea is pointing in the same direction. Whether you have the Divine Throne Guardian who is rebelling against God, or you have the chaos that is just rebellious itself. It's all in the narrative of this force or this power or this situation that is opposing God. And that's not good. Whatever is opposing God is not good. And I [00:11:00] think both sides of the way you can look at this are granting us an additional facet and some additional information. So I think it's really useful to keep all of these ideas in mind in a matrix, rather than just this one to one correspondence in our minds. And in particular, regarding this whole narrative with the serpent, and the fact that we have three separate falls that involve both humanity and divine beings, what we can see here is that you have appointed divine beings who should be doing their jobs, and they're not. And the whole not doing their jobs is not just that they dropped the ball, And they made a mistake, but that they are introducing rebellion, chaos, disorder. And of course, we can see ourselves in this narrative as well. When we're going against God, then we are the ones sowing disorder and chaos. But when we step into following [00:12:00] Christ and living into the kingdom of God, then what we do in connection with that is promote life and flourishing and God's good order. This is why I like the framework of Believing Loyalty, because it includes this element of us being allegiant to God in His kingdom, and you're going to do things to promote goodness in that kingdom. You can't be allegiant to a kingdom while trying to make that kingdom fall. We all need repentance because we all do things that are going to go against the kingdom, but where is our heart direction in all of that? All right, so our next question is, how did Satan become the god of this world? In my last episode, I said that the fall of Satan before the creation of the world came from Paradise Lost rather than the Bible. And I also said that [00:13:00] demons came from the situation in Genesis 6, which doesn't seem to be connected to what happens in Genesis 3 with the serpent. And if we jump to the New Testament and we're connecting that serpent in Genesis 3 to the figure of Satan... well, how did Satan become the Prince of Demons? How does the narrative of the Three Falls explain what we see in the New Testament as to how Satan is described? This is an excellent question, and just like with our last episode, we do need to turn to extra biblical texts in order to explain this. Now, again, that's not because those texts are inspired. It's just because the Bible itself doesn't give us enough data to go on. And that shouldn't disturb us, because it's okay that the writers didn't write literally everything that was in their heads. Because they already had [00:14:00] it in their heads. And their audience already had it in their heads. So they didn't have to explain what was obvious to everyone at the time because they were all kind of thinking the same kinds of things. They didn't have to explain it. But we're kind of left holding the bag, like, well, how do we go from there to here? Because we don't get it. So what we do is we turn to other writings to see exactly how they were thinking about all of this. Remember what I said about how it's so much easier to make connections when we are witnessing the ball falling off the table and we're being involved in that. When we're missing pieces of what's going on, we can't make those conceptual links without a little bit of help. So there's a lot of logic to the Paradise Lost version, where Satan and all of his minions fell at the same time. And to make this logical connection, we need a time as to when this happened. And even though the [00:15:00] text doesn't say Satan snuck in anywhere, well, we do have that bit in Genesis 1 with the chaos. Right? And Revelation 12 calls him a dragon, so he's the chaos beast. And so that chaos that exists in Genesis 1, that's directly connected to the rebellion of all of these fallen evil spirits. None of that can actually be demonstrated with Scripture. But again, it's this idea that you missed whose hand pushed the ball off the edge. So, we're going to make some inferences and use our imagination to fill in the gaps. And I also have to kind of throw out this idea that a lot of people are actually okay with the fact that this isn't actually backed up by Scripture. Perhaps they think this was revealed to them or to someone else, but I'm of the opinion that we can't use other revelation outside the Bible to explain these [00:16:00] things. But what we can also do is bring in the context of the biblical authors. That's not the same as bringing in extra revelation. Because I'm not using those other sources as revelation. I'm using them to help fill out this picture of the worldview of the authors. So, I hope that makes a little bit of sense as to the distinction there. And if you think that you have revelation or someone else has had revelation, well, I mean, okay, but I can't use that to base any solid argument on it for myself and to teach on. And, I mean, we can also use historical interpretation, right, as well, because that's the body of Christ who is working through these things in a thoughtful way. So where what is being said corresponds to what we have in Scripture through the lens of Jesus Christ, then that's also useful. [00:17:00] But just trying to introduce new data, that's just not something that is part of my hermeneutic. And, of course, it can be hard to kind of distinguish whether you're introducing new material or if it's already there. Sometimes we're entirely mistaken about what we have tried to discover. And that's why we need to hold a lot of this just loosely. And continually be on the lookout for new ideas to examine. Alright, so as far as Satan being the ruler of this world, I am going to be presenting a little bit of information from Dr. Heiser's Demons book. There's way more than I'm going to be presenting here, but I kind of want to show you a little bit of this logic of how we get to this point. There is a definitive line of logic that goes from the original rebel of Genesis 3 through to this more developed understanding of who Satan and the devil and the arch nemesis of God [00:18:00] is. And it doesn't dismantle any of the Fall narratives either. But what we can appreciate in Scripture is that the writers of the Old Testament simply didn't know as much as the writers of the New Testament. But I have some bad news for those who like to write out little chronologies of everything. You just can't do it. The data simply doesn't allow for that. What we can do is follow the logic and the conceptual links, but nowhere in Scripture is it describing how all of this actually played out in real time. I know that can be very frustrating to us, but the Bible simply doesn't address the questions that we have. So the New Testament uses a number of different names or titles for Satan. He is called the Tempter in Matthew 4 3, but that's not a common designation for him. He's called the Enemy in [00:19:00] places like Matthew 13 39 and Luke 10 19. He's called Satan 36 times in the New Testament, and he's also called the Devil. Which, we have an idea of what that is, but the original word in Greek means slanderer. And this makes kind of a lot of sense when you realize that the Greek translation of the Septuagint uses that word for the Hebrew word Satan in Job and Zechariah and 1st Chronicles. The New Testament also uses the word Beelzebul, or some have translated it or corrected it, perhaps, to Beelzebub. This term connects to Baal, who in ancient Near Eastern contexts was often seen as the lord of the underworld. And in John, we see the designation, the ruler of this world. This designation is not used in the Synoptic Gospels, [00:20:00] the Synoptic Gospels being Matthew, Mark, and Luke. And then in Paul, he uses language like Prince of the Power of the Air and the God of this World. And going back to that term Belzebul, at least according to the Pharisees, he is known as the Prince of Demons. So there's a very direct connection with Satan and demons there. So where do we get this idea of a head honcho, a prince of demons? Well, there's a lot of places in Second Temple literature that you can see that there is a big bad guy of the spiritual realm. But he goes by many different names in various types of documents. So it shouldn't surprise us then that the New Testament also presents this figure in a variety of terms. One of these terms that shows up in the Dead Sea Scrolls is Belial. In one document, Belial is in [00:21:00] parallel with Mastema. And Mastema is a name familiar to those who have read the book of Jubilees. The name Mastema doesn't show up in the New Testament, but the name Belial does. Now, I want to give you a bit of warning here, because what I'm going to lay out is a simplified version of what's going on here. I'm just trying to give you an example of how these things are kind of there in the text and how we can see them, but there's way more data packed in, especially when you consider the number of terms used and how different authors view things and their different frameworks, and then you wonder, well, Which one exactly is the New Testament authors pulling from, or are they pulling from all of them? It's kind of a mess, but in the Dead Sea Scrolls, Belial is called the Angel of Wickedness. He's also called the ruler of this world. If you're familiar with the community at [00:22:00] Qumran, who were the ones who preserved the Dead Sea Scrolls, they had this kind of dualistic idea going on. You had the Angels of Light versus the Angels of Darkness. They had the Sons of Light versus the Sons of Darkness. And there's the spiritual battle between the good and the evil. And, of course, the people at Qumran, they were attached to the Angels of Light. They were gonna be on the good guy's side. In one of the Dead Sea scrolls called the War Scroll, it says, you created Belial for the pit, the angel Mastema, his domain is darkness. His counsel is for evil and wickedness. All the spirits of his lot.... Angels of destruction... walk in the laws of wickedness. Towards them goes his only desire. Okay, so we have this idea of a war between good guys and bad guys, and if the good guys [00:23:00] have God on their side, well, the bad guys need to have a main leader, right? So all of this is the cultural mix of the New Testament. Okay, so we're going to look briefly at the Book of Jubilees. The Book of Jubilees was written at least a hundred years before Christ came, probably a little bit before that. And what it purports to be is a revelation to Moses when Moses was up on Mount Sinai. And this supposed revelation tracks along the storyline of Genesis and the first part of Exodus. As far as I can tell, the serpent in the Book of Jubilees that parallels the story of Genesis 3, he's just a serpent. He's an actual, literal talking snake. And the reason I can say this is that when Adam and Eve are expelled from the garden, it discusses how all of the animals now went mute. They can no longer speak. [00:24:00] Previously they all spoke with one language, now they cannot. And this is the kind of literalism that you see cropping up in the Book of Jubilees at times. What the author of Jubilees is doing is trying to make sense of some of the things that he doesn't quite understand in the older Book of Genesis. For instance, the Book of Jubilees explains that the reason Adam didn't live past a thousand years is because, well, a thousand years is like a day to the Lord, and Adam was to die within the day that he ate of the tree. So there you go. He died within a thousand years. And this is the explanation for how the curse was literally fulfilled. The only thing for us today is that we need to remember that a lot of this literature is just... The Jewish people writing to try and explain the things that they are trying to understand. This isn't surprising. This is [00:25:00] just normal human behavior. We don't need to take the information in Jubilees as inspired word, but it is helpful to see how the people were thinking. Just like we today wrestle with interpretations and trying to figure out exactly what is the best way of doing this. They were doing that, too. And I think that we forget just how separated they were from their previous contexts. And so they were just trying to get back to the meaning of what they should be thinking of their own sacred text. And certainly by this time there had been a lot of separation of the people. So there were different groups. There are different ways of thinking. Kind of sounds similar to what we have today. Alright, so my point here is that in the Book of Jubilees, the initial fall in the garden isn't connected to this main figure, but we do have the other two rebellions [00:26:00] connected to this leader. so the Book of Jubilees does have that Genesis 6 narrative that is in 1 Enoch with the Watchers and the daughters of men. And it kind of combines this idea of the angels also teaching. In Jubilees, the Watchers were sent by God in order to teach men good things. The Book of Jubilees actually says that Enoch was preserved in order to write all of these things down. In chapter four, it says, and he Enoch wrote everything and bore witness to the Watchers, the ones who sinned with the daughters of men because they began to mingle themselves with the daughters of men so that they might be polluted. And Enoch bore witness against all of them. In chapter 5 of Jubilees, it says, And when the children of men began to multiply on the surface of the earth, and daughters were born to them, that the angels of the Lord saw in a certain year of that Jubilee [00:27:00] that they were good to look at. And they took wives for themselves from all of those whom they chose, and they bore children for them. And they were the giants. Then we can skip over to chapter 8 of Jubilees, and we have a character named Cainan. Now, that's not the usual way that we think of spelling Cainan. This one is spelled C A I N A N, like Cain an. And in chapter 8 it says, And he found a writing, which the ancestors engraved on a stone. And he read what was in it, and he transcribed it. And he sinned because of what was in it, since there was in it the teaching of the Watchers, by which they used to observe the omens of the sun and moon and stars within all the signs of heaven. And he copied it down, but he did not tell about it, because he feared to tell Noah about it, lest he be angry with him because of it. So there's our teachings from the Watchers. [00:28:00] Then we're going to go over to chapter 10 of Jubilees. And this chapter begins with, In the third week of that Jubilee, the polluted demons began to lead astray the children of Noah's sons, and to lead them to folly, and to destroy them. And the sons of Noah came to Noah their father, and they told him about the demons who were leading astray and blinding and killing his grandchildren. And he prayed before the Lord his God, And he said, God, of the spirits, which are in all flesh, who has acted mercifully with me and saved me and my sons from the water of the flood, and did not let me perish as you did the children of perdition because great was your grace upon me and great was your mercy upon my soul. Let your grace be lifted up upon my sons, and do not let the evil spirits rule over them, lest they destroy them from the earth. But bless me and my sons, and let us grow and increase and fill the earth. And you know [00:29:00] that which your Watchers, the fathers of these spirits, did in my day, and also these spirits who are alive. Shut them up, and take them to the place of judgment. And do not let them cause corruption among the sons of your servant, O my God. Because they are cruel and they are created to destroy and let them not rule over the spirits of the living because you alone know their judgment. And do not let them have power over the children of the righteous, henceforth and forever. Now, going to pause here again because I didn't explain that the Book of Jubilees also has the context that there's an angel that is giving Moses this revelation. So this next part is about those good angels. Continuing on with chapter 10 of Jubilees, it says, and the Lord our God spoke to us so that we might bind all of them. And the chief of the spirits, Mastema came and he said, oh [00:30:00] Lord, creator, leave some of them before me and let them obey my voice and let them do everything, which I tell them because if some of them are not left for me, I will not be able to exercise the authority of my will among the children of men, because they are intended to corrupt and lead astray before my judgment, because the evil of the sons of men is great. And he said, let a tenth of them remain before him, but let nine parts go down into the place of judgment. And he told one of us to teach Noah all of their healing, because he knew that they would not walk uprightly and would not strive righteously. And we acted in accord with all of his words. All of the evil ones who were cruel, we bound in the place of judgment. But a tenth of them we let remain, so that they might be subject to Satan upon the earth. And the healing of all their illnesses together with their seductions, we told Noah so that he might heal by means of herbs of the earth. And [00:31:00] Noah wrote everything in a book, just as we taught him, according to every kind of healing. And the evil spirits were restrained from following the sons of Noah. Okay, I'm going to stop right there. But you see, in this section, we have the chief of spirits, Mastema. And this Mastema is in control of the demons, who were previously called polluted demons, which sounds a lot like the unclean spirits, right? And Mastema is also connected to Satan, later on in this reading, when it says that the tenth of the demons left over will be subject to Satan. I know that reading of Jubilees 10 is a bit complicated, because it keeps referring to people without telling you exactly who it's referring to. You've got the good angels, you've got God, you've got Mastema, you've got the demons, you've got the people involved. So yeah, it makes for some convoluted reading. But we also do have that third [00:32:00] divine rebellion in Jubilees. In chapter 15, it reads, but he, this is, God chose Israel, that they might be a people for himself and he sanctified them and gathered them from all of the sons of man because there are many nations and many people, and they all belong to him. But over all of them, he caused spirits to rule so that they might lead them astray from following him. But over Israel, he did not cause any angel or spirit to rule. Because he alone is their ruler and he will protect them, and he will seek for them at the hand of his angels and at the hand of his spirits and at the hand of all his authorities so that he might guard them and bless them, and they might be his, and he might be theirs henceforth and forever. Now, you might have noticed this little detail about how God put the spirits to rule so that they might lead them astray from [00:33:00] following him. That's very different from what we see in the Bible. In Acts 17, when Paul is in the Areopagus, it says, so Paul standing in the midst of the Areopagus said, men of Athens. I perceive that in every way you are very religious, for as I passed along and observed the objects of your worship, I found also an altar with this inscription. To the unknown God. What therefore you worship is unknown, this I proclaim to you, the God who made the world and everything in it, being Lord of heaven and earth, does not live in temples made by man, nor is he served by human hands as though he needed anything, since he himself gives to all mankind life and breath and everything, and he made from one man every nation of mankind to live on all the face of the earth, having determined allotted periods and the boundaries of their dwelling place. That they should seek God and perhaps feel their way [00:34:00] toward him and find him. Yet he is actually not far from each one of us. For in Him we live and move and have our being as even some of your own poets have said, for we are indeed his offspring. So Paul is not saying that God allotted the boundaries of the nations in order to have them serve other gods. He wanted them to be drawn to him. So, this idea that God put rebellious spirits over the nations because he just wanted to do it that way, that doesn't really fly. Okay, so as a bit of an aside, I want to explain a little bit here. We have Jubilees that is clearly referencing the division of the nations and the assigning of the spirits to the nations. It doesn't, however, seem to suggest that there is a literal rebellion. It's almost like God wanted this to happen. Jubilees is... less obvious, [00:35:00] at least.... we might go a little further than that, but I'm not sure. It's at least less obvious that Jubilees has Israel as intending to draw the nations to it. It seems a little bit more in the genre of Israel versus the nations, as the nations are evil. So it seems like maybe Israel isn't even really wanting to draw the nations to it here. Because, those nations are, they're bad. We don't like them. But let me read a quote from Dr. Heiser's Demons book that kind of goes into this. He quotes these verses from Jubilees 15, and then he says, quote, The key is verse 32. God did not allow any angel or spirit to rule over Israel, a clear reference to the Deuteronomy 32 worldview. Israel was Yahweh's allotted inheritance. But the other nations were put under the authority [00:36:00] of lesser gods, spirit beings. This language coupled with Jubilees 10, 1 through 13, where one tenth of the demons sprang forth from the spawn of the Watchers, creates a subtle connection between the sin of the Watchers at the time of the Flood and the incident at Babel. Scholars have taken note of this link. And then he quotes from another book that says, Some evil spirits are not precluded from pursuing all of Noah's children. At least not in the long run. Jubilees wants to claim that national boundaries are essential for understanding the role of demons. Ultimately, the demons are precluded only from pursuing Israel. Jubilees develops the link between demons and idolatry and further links demons and idolatry to other nations. Alright, so you can see how complex this is, and I feel like I've barely touched any of the material. There is definitely more you can look at as to how [00:37:00] the people of the time, of the New Testament, were thinking about this whole situation with the evil spirits. But there are a few of these common themes. Unfortunately, a lot of it is just that it's assumed that there's this leader. There has to be a leader. What you don't see anywhere is an explanation of that leader coming from a fall before or right at creation. That's simply not in the material at the time. So as I've explained, this idea comes from the story of Paradise Lost. So let's take some time and dig into that story. Okay, so first, we need to get into a bit of a preface here. Paradise Lost was published in 1667. John Milton was a Protestant. We could say that his theology was Calvinistic, but [00:38:00] he didn't quite hold to some of the ideas of predestination that many other Calvinists believe. And his general theology was a bit unorthodox. We know about his theology because he wrote a text that laid out his theology. And his most unorthodox view, which most would call a heresy, is that Jesus is not eternal. He believed the Son was literally begotten. So the Son had a beginning, and he was not eternal with the Father. Now, some people say that this heresy isn't a big deal, that it doesn't actually show up really in Paradise Lost. C. S. Lewis was actually of this opinion. He wrote a book called A Preface to Paradise Lost, which is a really cool book that talks a lot about the structure of Paradise Lost and some of the theology and things like that. But I think that C. S. Lewis is wrong. I think that Milton's view [00:39:00] of the Son does impact the storyline of Paradise Lost. And we don't have nearly enough time in this episode to go into very much of the general theology of the book of Paradise Lost. I'm going to distinguish a bit between theology and narrative. A lot of what I'm talking about when I'm talking about Paradise Lost is the narrative, which the narrative absolutely impacts and has a lot to do with the theology. But in order to look at the theology, you're looking at more than just the narrative. You're looking at the way things are laid out. And the specific ways in which things show up and things like that. So more than anything, I'm looking at the narrative and how the narrative itself, the storyline, the plot, has impacted us. Which again, that is also theology, but theology is a [00:40:00] little bit broader and you have to step back and look at the abstract things behind the narrative there. Primarily, our point here is to look at this Satan figure and see where he came from. What does this story look like? Paradise Lost is an epic poem, and today we don't have a whole lot of epic poems in our culture, aside from all of the classics. And most of us don't read those, or if we have read them, we were forced to do so in high school. And for sure, a lot of this language is not really familiar to us today, so it's kind of daunting for us to read this and understand what it's saying. You can either read it yourself, or you can listen to an audiobook of it, or something like that. Or you can do both. I have found that listening and reading at the same time helps me to not get too bogged down in the details that I don't understand what it's talking about. But I can get the [00:41:00] narrative of what's going on, and the storyline. And because it's a poem, hearing it out loud can help me get the better flow of the language. Paradise Lost is broken up into 12 separate books, and what's really helpful is at the beginning of each book, it gives you a brief description of what goes on in that book. So you already know what's going to happen, and that helps you frame what's going on. And that's really helpful to us, because if I'm trying to give you an overview of the story, we can look at those sections at the beginning of each book. So this is how Book 1 begins. Quote, This first book proposes, first in brief, the whole subject, man's disobedience, and the loss thereupon of Paradise, wherein he was placed, then touches the prime cause of his fall, the serpent, or rather Satan in the serpent, who, revolting from [00:42:00] God and drawing to his side many legions of angels, was, by the command of God, driven out of heaven with all his crew into the great deep. Which action passed over, the poem hastens into the midst of things, presenting Satan with his angels now falling into hell, described here not in the center, for heaven and earth may be supposed as yet not made, certainly not yet accursed, But in a place of utter darkness, fitliest called Chaos, here Satan with his angels lying on the burning lake, thunderstruck and astonished, after a certain space recovers, as from confusion, calls up him who next in order and dignity lay by him. They confer of their miserable fall. Satan awakens all his legions, who lay till then in the same manner confounded. They rise, Their number, array of battle, their chief leaders named according to the idols known afterwards in Canaan and the countries adjoining. [00:43:00] To these, Satan directs his speech, comforts them with hope yet of regaining heaven, but tells them lastly of a new world and a new kind of creature to be created, according to an ancient prophecy or report in heaven, for that angels were, long before this visible creation, was the opinion of many ancient fathers. To find out the truth of this prophecy and what to determine thereon, he refers to a full council. What his associates thence attempt, Pandemonium, the palace of Satan, rises suddenly built out of the deep. The infernal peers there sit in council. End quote. The narrative opens with Satan and all of his minions falling into hell. And this is part of what he sees. Quote, At once, as far as angels ken, he views the dismal situation. Waste and wild. A dungeon horrible on [00:44:00] all sides around, as one great furnace flamed. Yet from those flames no light, but rather darkness visible, served only to discover sights of woe, regions of sorrow, doleful shades, where peace and rest can never dwell. Hope never comes that comes to all, but torture without end still urges, and a fiery deluge fed with ever burning sulfur, unconsumed. End quote. The description there of hell being wild and waste, that's interesting. People like Tim Mackey of the Bible Project have translated the tohu va vohu of Genesis 1 into wild and waste. I do think Milton is calling on that imagery of Genesis 1. But at any rate, the rest of this book has Satan conferring a counsel as to what they're going to do about their new situation. And it gives a description with names of a whole [00:45:00] bunch of Satan's top minions. And those are the gods of the nations of Canaan and surrounding areas, according to what Milton knew about that. The description of Book 2 says, quote, The consultation begun. Satan debates whether another battle to be hazard for the recovery of heaven. Some advise it, others dissuade. A third proposal is preferred, mentioned before by Satan, to search the truth of that prophecy or tradition in heaven concerning another world, and another kind of creature, equal, or not much inferior to themselves, about this time to be created. Their doubt, who shall be sent on this difficult search? Satan, their chief, undertakes alone the voyage, is honored and applauded. The council thus ended. The rest betake them several ways and to several employments, as their inclinations lead them, to entertain the time till Satan [00:46:00] return. He passes on his journey to Hellgates, finds them shut, and who sat there to guard them. By whom at length they are opened, and discover to him the great gulf between hell and heaven, with what difficulty he passes through, directed by chaos, the power of that place, to the sight of this new world, which he sought. End quote. Satan, of course, was very full of himself, and book two begins with his motivation and how prideful he is. In part, it says, quote, Satan, exalted, sat, by merit raised to that bad eminence, and from despair, thus high uplifted, beyond hope, aspires beyond thus high, insatiate, to pursue vain war with heaven, and by success untaught, his proud imaginations, thus displayed. One of the interesting parts of this chapter is the [00:47:00] description of the gates of hell, and the beings who guard the gates of hell. There are nine gates, three brass, three iron, three adamantine rock, and they are guarded by two figures. Quote, The one seemed woman to the waist and fair, but ended foul in many a scaly fold, voluminous and vast, a serpent armed with mortal sting. About her middle round a cry of hellhounds never ceasing barked, with wide Cerberian mouths full loud and rung a hideous peal. Yet, when they list, would creep, if ought disturb their noise, into her womb, and kennel there. Yet, there still barked and howled within unseen. End quote. Yeah, that's not creepy, right? It turns out that this figure is Sin, and Satan at first doesn't recognize her, but she had been born from his head in heaven.[00:48:00] The second figure is described like this, quote, The other shape, if shape it might be called, That shape had none distinguishable in member, Joint or limb, or substance might be called That shadow seemed, for each seemed either, Black it stood as night, fierce as ten furies, Terrible as hell, and shook a dreadful dart. What seemed his head, the likeness of a kingly crown, had on. This figure is Death, who is also born due to Satan's rebellion. It is the figure of Sin, who is given the key to the gates of Hell. Satan convinces her to unlock the doors because he tells both sin and death that they will be able to follow him up to the new world in order to wreak havoc. Okay, so by the end of Book 2, Satan manages to get through chaos up to the point that he can view [00:49:00] the world from a distance, hanging in a golden chain. The description of Book 3 says, quote, God, sitting on his throne, sees Satan flying towards this world, then newly created, shows him to the Son, who sat at his right hand, foretells the success of Satan in perverting mankind, clears his own justice and wisdom from all imputation, having created man free, and able enough to have withstood his tempter, yet declares his purpose of grace towards him. In regard he fell not of his own malice, as did Satan, but by him seduced. The Son of God renders praises to his Father, for the manifestation of his gracious purpose towards man. But God again declares that grace cannot be extended towards man without the satisfaction of divine justice. Man hath offended the majesty of God by aspiring to [00:50:00] Godhead, and therefore with all his progeny devoted to death, must die, unless someone can be found sufficient to answer for his offense and undergo his punishment. The Son of God freely offers himself a ransom for man. The Father accepts him, ordains his incarnation, pronounces his exaltation above all names in heaven and earth, commands all the angels to adore him. They obey, and hymning to their harps in full choir, celebrate the Father and the Son. Meanwhile, Satan alights upon the bare convex of this world's outermost orb, where wandering he first finds a place since, called the Limbo of Vanity. What persons and things fly up thither, thence comes to the gate of heaven, described ascending by stairs, and the waters above the firmament that flow about it. His passage thence to the orb of the sun, he finds there Uriel, the regent of that orb, [00:51:00] but first changes himself into the shape of a meaner angel, and pretending a zealous desire to behold the new creation, and man, whom God had placed there, Inquires of him, the place of his habitation and is directed. Alights first on Mount Nefates. End quote. Alright, so you notice a bit of language about the solar system as far as like a timeline of cosmology, copernicus was doing his work over a hundred years before this story was written, and Galileo was approximately 50 years before this. So, in Book 3, we have God and the Son. Nowhere in Paradise Lost is Jesus, or the Son, called God. And C. S. Lewis is right in his point that even in the New Testament, we have language that could be seen as blurring the line of Jesus and his relationship to God, [00:52:00] right? You have Jesus described as the express image of God. And Lewis is like, well, you know, this is kind of the same thing, but I don't think it is. And in particular, I don't think it is because in book three, God holds a council amongst his heavenly host and says, who's going to save mankind? And the Son puts up his hand and says, I'll do it. So it's like, there's this chance that another spiritual being could have done what Jesus did. And that's just not solid Christian theology. No one but Jesus could do what Jesus did. No one but the Son could do that. And I think this is pretty obviously supposed to parallel what's happening in hell with Satan's counsel. And Satan goes, Who's gonna go up and corrupt humanity? No one does, and so Satan does that. But from the heaven side, it's not God who's going down. It's [00:53:00] somebody below God. I just don't think it's presenting the Son as being co equal with God. And I think that's a big problem. Call me crazy. But continuing on with our story, one of the points that God makes is that man is free and he has enough information that he shouldn't have fallen for Satan's deal. And it's interesting, we'll see in a little bit later in the story, That Paradise Lost throws in a couple of additional reasons for why mankind fell and how mankind really should have known better. I'm going to read a little bit of section here towards the end of Book 3, which has Uriel, the Angel of the Sun, describing what he saw when creation was happening. He says, quote, I saw when at his word the formless mass, this world's material mold, came to a heap. Confusion heard his [00:54:00] voice, and wild uproar stood ruled, stood vast infinitude confined, till at his second bidding, darkness fled, light shone, and order from disorder sprung. End quote. So there's a whole lot more that I could say about Book 3. But we're going to move on to book four. And the description there says, quote, Satan, now in prospect of Eden, and nigh the place where he must now attempt the bold enterprise which he undertook alone against God and man, falls into many doubts with himself, and many passions, fear, envy, and despair, but at length confirms himself in evil, journeys on to Paradise, whose outward prospect and situation is described. Overleaps the bounds. Sits in the shape of a Coromant in the Tree of Life, as highest in the garden to look about him. The garden [00:55:00] described, Satan's first sight of Adam and Eve, his wonder at their excellent form and happy state. But with resolution to work their fall, overhears their discourse, thence gathers that the tree of knowledge was forbidden them to eat of, under penalty of death, and thereon intends to found his temptation, by seducing them to transgress, then leaves them a while to know further of their state by some other means. Meanwhile, Uriel, descending on a sunbeam, warns Gabriel, who had in charge the Gate of Paradise, that some evil spirit had escaped the deep, and passed at noon by his sphere, in the shape of a good angel down to Paradise, discovered after by his furious gestures in the mount. Gabriel promises to find him ere morning. Night coming on, Adam and Eve discourse of going to their rest. Their bower described. Their evening worship. Gabriel, drawing forth his bands [00:56:00] of night watch to walk the round of paradise, appoints two strong angels to Adam's bower, lest the evil spirit should be there doing some harm to Adam or Eve sleeping. There they find him at the ear of Eve, tempting her in a dream, and bring him, though unwilling, to Gabriel, by whom questioned, he scornfully answers, prepares resistance, But hindered by a sign from heaven, flies out of paradise. End quote. Okay, so lots to say about this book. It begins with a mention of the dragon from the Book of Revelation and seems to suggest that what John is talking about in the Book of Revelation of the dragon falling is not the first fall of Satan, but this second fall of Satan actually tempting mankind and being caught and re-cast out. And Satan is a shapeshifter. He shapeshifted into a good looking angel [00:57:00] of lesser rank when he talked to Uriel. When Uriel saw him go down and land on the mountain, and Satan was having his existential crisis there, he was showing his true colors of who he really was. And so Uriel knew that he was a fallen angel who had come to invade Eden. And once he jumps over Eden's high wall because he couldn't get past the single gate, He hangs out as a bird in the Tree of Life, and that's where he hears Adam and Eve talking about the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil. Now you might be wondering about this part of him tempting Eve in the dream. Here he's planting the seed of the idea of the temptation. Adam and Eve haven't done anything wrong, just yet. I want to read to you the description of the trees in the middle of the garden. It says, quote, Out of the fertile ground he caused to grow all trees of the noblest kind for sight, smell, taste. [00:58:00] And all amid them stood the tree of life, high eminent, blooming ambrosial fruit, a vegetable gold. And next to life are death. The tree of knowledge grew fast by. Knowledge of good bought dear by knowing ill. End quote. And I might as well describe Adam and Eve here. It says, quote, Two of far nobler shape, erect and tall, godlike erect, with native honor clad in naked majesty, seemed lords of all. And worthy seemed, for in their looks divine, the image of their glorious Maker shone. Truth, wisdom, sanctitude, severe and pure. End quote. Alright, I might not give too many more quotes as we go through the rest of the story so that we can speed things along, but Paradise Lost is a classic for valid reasons, and I wanted to [00:59:00] show how that is the case. It has beautiful imagery, beautiful language, the story is really, really interesting, and you can find copies of Paradise Lost that have some of the older illustrations in it. So, you can see for yourself just how captivating this whole thing was, and still is, to be honest. At any rate, let's go ahead and continue our story. So, in Book 4, Satan tempted Eve in her dream. He got caught. And he got kicked out again. The description for Book 5 says, quote, Morning approached. Eve relates to Adam her troublesome dream. He likes it not, yet comforts her. They come forth to their day labors. Their morning hymn at the door of their bower. God, to render man inexcusable, sends Raphael to admonish him of his [01:00:00] obedience, of his free estate. of his enemy near at hand, who he is, and why his enemy, and whatever else may avail Adam, to know. Raphael comes down to paradise, his appearance described, his coming discerned by Adam afar off, sitting at the door of his bower. He goes out to meet him, brings him to his lodge, entertains him with the choicest fruits of paradise got together by Eve. Their Discourse at Table Raphael performs his message, minds Adam of his state and of his enemy, relates at Adam's request who the enemy is, and how he came to be so, beginning from his first revolt in heaven, and the occasion thereof, how he drew his legions after him to the parts of the north, and there incited them to rebel with him. Persuading all but only Abadale a seraph who in argument dissuades and opposes him. Then forsakes him. [01:01:00] End quote. Alright, so just like book four, you'll notice in book five there's quite a bit of addition to the biblical story. The Angel Raphael comes down to tell Adam about his enemy. So, Adam is literally warned about Satan's coming. The whole story of Satan's fall is told to Adam, so he has absolutely no excuse to rebel at all. He knows that there's going to be trouble coming, and he's solidly warned against it. Okay, let's go ahead and move on to Book 6. The description there says, quote, Raphael continues to relate how Michael and Gabriel were sent forth to battle against Satan and his angels. The first fight described, Satan and his powers retire under night. He calls a council, invents devilish engines, which, in the second day's fight, puts Michael and his angels to some disorder. But they, at length, [01:02:00] pulling up mountains, overwhelm both the force and machines of Satan. Yet the tumult not so ending, God, on the third day, sends Messiah, his Son, for whom he had reserved the glory of that victory. He, in the power of his father, coming to the place and causing all his legions to stand still on either side, with his chariot and thunder driving into the midst of his enemies, pursues them, unable to resist, towards the wall of heaven. Which opening they leap down with horror and confusion into the place of punishment prepared for them in the deep. Messiah returns with triumph to his Father. End quote. Alright, so book six is where we see the dramatic fight in heaven, and the triumph of the Messiah. The description of Book seven says, Quote, Raphael, at the request of Adam, relates how and wherefore this [01:03:00] world was first created, that God, after the expelling of Satan and his angels out of heaven, declared his pleasure to create another world and other creatures to dwell therein, sends his Son with glory and attendance of angels to perform the work of creation in six days. The angels celebrate with hymns the performance thereof and his re ascension into heaven. End quote. The description of Book Eight says, quote, Adam inquires concerning celestial motions, is doubtfully answered, and exhorted to search rather things more worthy of knowledge. Adam assents, and still desirous to retain Raphael, relates to him what he remembered since his own creation, his placing in Paradise, his talk with God concerning solitude and fit society, his first meeting and nuptials with Eve. His discourse with the angel thereupon, [01:04:00] who, after admonitions repeated, departs. End quote. So that's kind of interesting. In Book 8, Adam is wanting to know things that are beyond the appropriateness of his station in life. But Adam likes to talk, so he keeps Raphael there and tells Raphael his story up to the point of his marriage with Eve. All right, so Book 9. The description here reads, quote, Satan, having compassed the earth with mediated guile, returns, as a mist, by night into paradise, enters into the serpent, sleeping. Adam and Eve, in the morning, go forth to their labors, which Eve proposes to divide in several places, each laboring apart. Adam consents not, alleging the danger, lest that enemy, of whom they were forewarned, should attempt her found alone. Eve, loath to be thought [01:05:00] not circumspect or firm enough, urges her going apart, the rather desirous to make trial of her strength. Adam at last yields. The serpent finds her alone, his subtle approach, first gazing, then speaking, with much flattery extolling Eve above all other creatures. Eve, wondering to hear the serpent speak, asks how he attained to human speech, and such understanding not till now. The serpent answers that, by tasting of a certain tree in the garden, he attained both to speech and reason, till then void of both. Eve requires him to bring her to that tree, and finds it to be the tree of knowledge, forbidden. The serpent, now grown bolder, with many wiles and arguments, induces her at length to eat. She, pleased with the taste, deliberates a while whether to impart thereof to Adam or not, at last brings him of the fruit, relates what [01:06:00] persuaded her to eat thereof. Adam, at first amazed, but perceiving her lost, resolves, through vehemence of love, to perish with her. And extenuating the trespass, eats also of the fruit, the effects thereof in them both. They seek to cover their nakedness, then fall to variance and accusation of one another. End quote. So we have this Romeo and Juliet narrative going on now. If we wonder, when we read Genesis, why Adam ate the fruit even though he knew he shouldn't have. Well, Paradise Lost says it's because he loved Eve so much that he knew she was lost, so he was going to be lost with her. And note also that Satan, even though he's a shapeshifter, he doesn't shapeshift into the serpent. He enters the serpent. I expect this is because the serpent is cursed. So Milton wants this to really be a [01:07:00] serpent. And also, that silly Eve. If only she hadn't insisted upon working separately from Adam, maybe this all wouldn't have happened. Oh, silly women. If you don't catch my sarcasm there, that was sarcasm. That's definitely another problem with the Paradise Lost narrative. It really doesn't present women in a good light. Moving on to book 10. This is what the description says here, quote, man's transgression known, the guardian angels forsake paradise and return up to heaven to approve their villigence and are approved. God declaring that the entrance of Satan could not be by them prevented. He sends his Son to judge the transgressors who descends and give sentence accordingly. Then in pity clothes them both and re-ascends. Sin and death, sitting till then at the gates of hell, [01:08:00] by wondrous sympathy feeding the success of Satan in this new world, and the sin by man there committed, resolve to sit no longer confined in hell, but to follow Satan, their sire, up to the place of man. To make the way easier from hell to this world to and fro, they pave a broad highway or bridge over chaos, according to the track that Satan first made. Then, preparing for Earth, they meet him, proud of his success, returning to Hell, their mutual gratulation. Satan arrives at Pandemonium, in full assembly relates with boasting his success against man. Instead of applause, is entertained with a general hiss by all his audience, transformed, with himself also, suddenly into serpents, according to his doom given in Paradise. Then, deluded with the show of the forbidden trees springing up before them, they, greedily reaching to take of the fruit, [01:09:00] chew dust and bitter ashes. The Proceedings of Sin and Death. God foretells the final victory of his Son over them, and the renewing of all things. But, for the present commands his angels to make several alterations in the heavens and elements. Adam, more and more perceiving his fallen condition, heavily bewails, rejects the condolment of Eve. She persists, and at length appeases him. Then, to evade the curse likely to fall on their offspring, proposes to Adam violent ways, which he approves not. But conceiving better hope, puts her in mind of the late promise made them, that her seed should be revenged of the serpent, and exhorts her with him to seek peace of the offended deity, by repentance and supplication. End quote. Yeah, so even after this whole thing that happens, Milton has Eve trying to instigate [01:10:00] Adam to general violence. So yeah, great theology there. I'm being sarcastic again. So in Book 10, the guardian angels run back up to heaven, and they're like, God, we're sorry, we couldn't stop this, and God's like, yeah, I know, you couldn't stop Satan. The Son comes down and judges everyone, and sin and death come up from hell. And there's this broad highway to hell. That's interesting. Maybe we've heard of that before in our culture somewhere. Hmm. But when Satan goes down to his palace to get all of his congratulations, he finds that everyone there has turned into snakes. Suddenly, the forbidden tree shows up there, and they're like, Hey! At least we can eat that! But that ends up being dust, just like the snake is eating dust, get it? Of course, in actuality, the Bible's image of dust is actually humanity. Humanity is made from [01:11:00] dust, goes to dust. So the image of the serpent eating dust is that the serpent is eating humanity. He's eating the human dead when the human dead go down into the realm of Satan. But here, the eating of dust is seen as eating from the forbidden tree. And in the end of this book, we have Adam who wants to make peace with the offended deity. So we're getting towards the end of our story. In Book 11, the description says, The Son of God presents to His Father the prayers of our first parents now repenting and intercedes for them. God accepts them, but declares that they must no longer abide in Paradise. Sends Michael with a band of cherubim to dispossess them. But first to reveal to Adam future things. Michael's coming down. Adam shows to Eve certain ominous signs. He discerns Michael's approach goes out to meet him.[01:12:00] The angel denounces, their departure Eve's lamentation Adam pleads, but submits the angel, leads him up to a high hill sets before him in vision what shall happen till the flood end quote. So this is basically kind of a long, drawn out expulsion from the garden, but the angels are also giving them some information and showing them the course of history. The last book of Paradise Lost, Book 12, the description says, The angel Michael continues from the flood to relate what shall succeed. Then, in the mention of Abraham, comes by degrees to explain who that seed of the woman shall be, which was promised Adam and Eve in the fall, his incarnation, death, resurrection, and ascension, the state of the church till his second coming. Adam, greatly satisfied and recomforted by these relations and promises, descends the hill with Michael, [01:13:00] wakens Eve, who all this while had slept, but with gentle dreams composed to quietness of mind and submission. Michael, in either hand, leads them out of Paradise, the fiery sword waving behind them and the cherubim taking their stations to guard the place. End quote. So Book 12 continues the revelation of history from the flood to the Eschaton, to the Second Coming. And so this comforts Adam and he's like, Okay, things are gonna be alright in the end, even though we really seriously messed up. Eve, on the other hand, she didn't get any of this revelation. She just gets to go to sleep and find herself submissive later. Great. I have a copy of the book of Paradise Lost with images from Gustav Dore, who is one of the greatest illustrators of this story, and the last image in the book... It's got Michael [01:14:00] blocking the way with his sword to the garden. And then in the front of the picture you have Adam, who's turned towards the angel, and he's holding Eve's hand, but Eve is in a really weird position. She's turned away, and she's got her hand up to her head, and she's like, Oh! Woe is me. I could say a lot about a lot of these other images. Now, of course, Paradise Lost is itself the recipient of a longer tradition of imagery previous to this, right? With the angels in their wings and the grotesque imagery of Satan. All of that has a much longer history as well. And I am not going to point out every single thing of parallel that I see in Paradise Lost to how we are viewing things. You guys can do that on your own. That's kind of why I wanted to lay out the story so you could think about it a little bit and say, Well, this part over here is very solidly biblical. This part over here, maybe [01:15:00] not so much. And just maybe have a better idea of where our ideas came from. As you can see from the story of Paradise Lost, and the previous stories we have from the culture of the biblical people, there's differences there. But there's also similarities. So I'm gonna go ahead and wrap up this episode, and I hope that you enjoyed it. I hope you got something out of it. I hope you enjoyed the story. Maybe you'll go and read or listen to Paradise Lost Yourself. Overall, it's a well developed story. Makes for good reading and good poetry. But thanks for listening, and if you receive my newsletter and don't get it, check your spam folders. If you don't receive my newsletter and you want to, You can sign up for it at GenesisMarksTheSpot. com. You can also go to that site for show notes, blog posts, you can find out how to donate, and some other interesting things. If you don't join me [01:16:00] at my Facebook group, then you're welcome to do so if you are on Facebook. And you can email me at genesismarksthespot at gmail. com. I'd love to hear any questions you have as I'm gathering some more to do another Q& A episode. Thank you, thank you, thank you for listening. Thank you to my Patreons who support me, and to those who donate through PayPal as well. I hope you all have a fabulous and blessed week, and we will see you later.

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