Episode Transcript
Carey Griffel: [00:00:00] Welcome to Genesis Marks the Spot, where we raid the ivory tower of biblical theology without ransacking our faith. My name is Carey Griffel, and today I am joined by my friend Cindy Beaver, and we are going to be doing another public reading of Scripture. This time we're going to be getting into Genesis 4, and we will be reading two different translations.
She will be reading the Lexham English Septuagint. I will be reading the English Standard Version, and we will be comparing those, and we will be talking about the things that pop out to us, and all of the interesting things that we can think to explore in this chapter.
Like with my other readings, we will probably not get that far into the chapter because there's so much to talk about, but that is okay. So I'm going to go ahead and introduce Cindy and let her tell you a little bit about herself. Hi, Cindy.
Cindy Beaver: [00:01:00] Hello! My name is Cindy Beaver and I'm a business systems analyst currently consulting with a major national retailer.
I've been deep diving into biblical studies since the early 2000s when I took a two year long Bible study program that was a deep dive. But you know what? 60 classes is still not a deep dive in my opinion. I mean, it was great for a foundational. But now in retrospect and looking at it, it's like, no, I need, you know, like a five year. ...I mean, we could talk about Genesis for five years, but anyway, that particular program really emphasized understanding things in cultural context. And so that just sent me on a whole journey of looking for quality reading materials, to learn and educate. And I was doing much more on the self study route as opposed to taking classes.
And then I would wind up finding like N. T. Wright [00:02:00] or, Kenneth Bailey and started reading those bibliographies and finding authors through them because, you know, there's so much junk out there that it's hard to know what is a quality reputable scholar versus somebo dy with some strange idea.
And I just wanted to stay in, without going to school, I wanted to stay in the mainstream. And so those bibliographies really, really helped. And eventually I subscribed to Bible study magazine, which then got me introduced to Dr. Michael Heiser. And well, you know, his Naked Bible podcast really caused me to buy books left and right, Joshua Sherman and I both have what we call, compulsive book acquisition syndrome, acronym for CBAS.
Uh, and so right now I probably , could fill five bookcases with the stuff that I've [00:03:00] collected over the years. So, I did take AWKNG's courses, just like you did and Michael Norton as well, I do have that certificate program, but otherwise I don't have any kind of biblical studies or theological degree.
I just have read a lot, a lot, a lot. So that's kind of where I am. Eventually, I do want to teach, but with my full time job right now, it's just hard to carve out opportunities, which is partly why I am just thrilled to be able to participate with you on this because I'm looking at genesis four, there is so much interesting stuff that we can talk about.
Carey Griffel: That is awesome, Cindy. And, honestly, your story, I think it's fabulous because that's where a lot of people are and, that can give people a lot of hope to understand that they really can dig very deeply into this stuff. You just have to want it and you have to know where to [00:04:00] start. If you have a good starting place, then that's where you can follow all of the rabbit trails. So that's why finding the, really good solid books to begin with, and then getting into the bibliography and following those rabbit trails. That is awesome. So, Yeah. Thanks Cindy. And I appreciate you joining me today as well.
Cindy Beaver: Yes. I really do think Dr. Heiser was right, especially when he would talk about , his audience and that we're not afraid of reading footnotes and this and that and the other thing.
And it's totally right. That's exactly where I'm reading is reading all those footnotes and I want to probe. So, that's definitely a way that you can do it without having a degree.
Carey Griffel: Alright, well we are just going to go ahead and jump right in on our reading. And again, I'm going to start with the ESV.
And I'm going to be reading the first two verses to start out with. Now [00:05:00] Adam knew Eve, his wife. And she conceived and bore Cain, saying, I have gotten a man with the help of the Lord. And again, she bore his brother Abel. Now, Abel was a keeper of sheep and Cain, a worker of the ground.
Cindy Beaver: And I'm reading, uh, the Lexham English Septuagint. And for those of you that are not familiar with the Septuagint, it was , A work initiated by Ptolemy back in Egypt, um, 250 BC or thereabouts. I'm kind of rough with the date, but Ptolemy was building the, library in Alexandria and he wanted copies of all the world famous books and the Torah was 1 of the things that he wanted and there's , a letter of Aristides that describes him contracting for 70 scribes or 72, depending on which number you want to use who went to Egypt and [00:06:00] translated the Torah into Greek. And so this book stems from that. It's a Greek translation of the Hebrew. , the Lexham English version is a newer translation that Lexham did, they own logos and faith life , and all that, so I will also read, those same 2 verses, in the 4th chapter of Genesis.
Adam knew Eve, his wife, and she conceived and brought forth Cain and said, I have acquired a man through God, and she proceeded to bring forth his brother Abel. Abel became a herdsman of sheep. And Cain was working the earth.
What I think is interesting about these two verses is, there's some word play in Hebrew having to do with the name of Cain where the word Cain and where in my translation, it says, I have acquired a man, though the Hebrew word acquired and Cain, they rhyme. And so there's [00:07:00] some playing with that. , and then Abel, the word in Hebrew is Hevel.
And for those of you that are familiar with Ecclesiastics, hevel, hevel, everything is hevel. It means vapor or vanity. It really is foretelling that Abel isn't going to last very long. So kind of doubting that these were their actual names, but they're definitely significant when it comes to what they're trying to communicate here.
Carey Griffel: Right. I mean, there's a couple of different ways you could look at it. You could think that there was some sort of prophecy involved in the naming of people, but really in the ancient Near East and in the ancient world at large, we see a lot of this going on with names where sometimes people aren't named until later in life anyway, because they acquire a name because of something significant in their life or something that's going on, things like that. So we shouldn't be [00:08:00] too shocked , at this and we shouldn't just immediately jump to the idea that these are prophetic names. Like, I mean, maybe it's a possibility, but the way they treated names in the past tended to be a little bit different than how we tend to think of names.
Cindy Beaver: Exactly.
Carey Griffel: And when you have editors as well, they know what's going on and they can be pointing out things in particular so that their readers will also really latch onto these things as well.
Cindy Beaver: Yes, I do think that the redactors and the people that worked to create the Bible, they were all inspired and gifted by God. There's no, I don't question that. I mean, this work is so intricate and I also think it is so multifaceted. It's like looking at a diamond and you can look at it from various perspectives and they're all right. , and it's okay to be doing that. So you can have a different perspective.[00:09:00]
For example, there are those that talk about Cain and Abel being an allegory for Northern and Southern Israel. , Abel was a herdsman of sheep , so that anchors him in Southern part of Israel where , I mean, it's they can't grow crops there in Judah and that area. It's all sandy, rocky Bethlehem.
And so they do a lot of sheep and goats. Whereas Cain was working the earth, he was a farmer. Well, you're farming in northern Israel. And so you've got those two pieces of it. And then when you see that Cain, because of his actions within this chapter, goes into exile and is forever supposed to be wandering.
Well, what happened to the northern tribes? They went into exile and basically disappeared and were assimilated into the gentile nations. Whereas [00:10:00] Judah and with Abel, they lasted a little bit longer, but I think a lot of times they blamed Northern Israel for their predicament And so you can see, yes, Cain killed Abel, meaning northern Israel resulted in Judah's death exile because they left them defenseless because it was a small one tribe, two tribes, two and a half tribes, however many versus if they had been one United country, they could have done a better job of fighting off as well as if they'd stayed loyal to Yahweh, all of those things.
That's just one perspective and one facet of this story, but there are many others as well.
Carey Griffel: And I've talked a bit about, the dating of the book of Genesis and how especially these first 11 chapters are very Mesopotamian in [00:11:00] their structure and in their themes and in the, way that they should be read. Like if we're reading it from the perspective of the exile in Babylon, then all of these stories start popping out with different themes that we would not be latching onto it when we're reading it in English in our modern context when we are so far away from all of that context.
Cindy Beaver: Correct. And in retrospect, they're looking here's Judah looking at we're in exile. How did it happen? Well, it all started with Cain.
Carey Griffel: And we don't want to overlook the fact that the people groups were very connected to how they saw their sources, right their patriarchs and where they stemmed from. , and it doesn't have to be some biological genealogical thing because adoption was a thing and it was about the narrative and the story of how did we get from somewhere [00:12:00] good or somewhere where we weren't before to where we are now.
And this also shows just how patterned the Bible is. When you see these patterns, they show up again and again and again, and they are bringing to mind different things in every instance of the pattern.
Cindy Beaver: , but they're also teaching, and by repetition, you start to see that this is really an important thing that we need to pay attention to.
Carey Griffel: Absolutely.
Cindy Beaver: Have you encountered anything about where Eve's statement, Where it says I've acquired a man through God versus, how was yours phrased?
Carey Griffel: I have gotten a man with the help of the Lord.
Cindy Beaver: Yes So some some commentaries talk about it where Eve is prideful, that I've been able to do this just like God did. Others say that She's [00:13:00] hopeful that she's given birth, maybe to the seed that will resolve everything, you know, that maybe this is the Messiah.
And so she's joyful. I find it interesting how the commentators in reading this have 2 different lines of thoughts and it's like, well, we don't hear her tone of voice. So we can't be sure,
Carey Griffel: Right? Yeah. And it could go either direction really.
Of course, there are less savory directions that people have gone here as well, but it says directly that Adam knew his wife, and we know that that is a euphemism for the general relation between a husband and a wife that produces offspring. So, it's pretty obvious what's going on here.
Cindy Beaver: I agree. And I was gonna bring that up in that this, it seems very, very clear that this is not Eve messing around with Satan to, have a serpent seed. , [00:14:00] it's Adam knew his wife and yeah, knew the Hebrew language is, you know, knowing doesn't mean just, Oh yeah, I mentally know you, I can pick you out of a group of people, but it's, I know you, I physically touch you or all the way to, yeah, the marital relations. I know you inside and out.
Carey Griffel: Well, and here, obviously we have the first instance of the two sons that people have, we have the older son and the younger son. And most everyone is very familiar with general inheritance laws throughout history that have just always been there, where the oldest son, he is the one with the most responsibility.
He is the one who is supposed to be taking care of everything that the father has, and so he is required to have more of an inheritance because [00:15:00] he is going to have more responsibility. So because of that, he is it's in a sense more blessed, but also that comes with the responsibility that the oldest should have.
And then we have the younger son and that's a massive theme within Scripture. And this might not actually be quite the first place that we see the older and younger son because I wonder if we could also see it in the spiritual beings Versus humanity, but that's a much bigger conversation.
This is where we see it laid out for everyone to see. And it's super obvious.
Cindy Beaver: Although I do think, I wonder if there are some echoes when we get into the offering and things like that, that may be not understanding what the offering differences are, that there might be something about the, angelic elder[00:16:00] , siblings versus humanity and what they can bring , and all of that. So, yeah, it's hard to know, but I agree that it's not out of the question that it could touch on that.
Carey Griffel: And so far in our reading, all we have is that there are the two sons and Cain is the one who is specifically labeled with the phrase that Eve acquired him with the help of God. And then there was Abel, it says. So, yeah. Hey, Abel.
Cindy Beaver: Yep, exactly. It doesn't even say that Adam knew Eve to produce him.
He just, oh, and then there's Abel.
Carey Griffel: Yeah, I think that some people take that to suggest that they are twins. I think that's probably reading a bit too much into the text, but that is something I have heard before.
Cindy Beaver: I was looking at Jubilees, one of [00:17:00] the apocryphal books and , it's interesting.
They say that, Abel was born a year later. I mean, it's like, well, okay. But they also say that Cain was born and he was shiny and I'm like. Oh, you know, so you see where some of the possible, why would he be a shining one might have come from. It's not coming from the actual biblical text. It's coming from some of those 2nd, temple literature where they're exploring and commentary on these books and what maybe some of the oral teachings and historical things that, didn't get included in the actual Bible, but were known. Those stories that were known and how they got written during that time period.
Carey Griffel: Right, exactly. The Second Temple literature kind of functions for us as a, as exactly that, like a commentary, the way that they're interpreting [00:18:00] it. So what we can't do is import that necessarily into the original writer, but if Genesis was at least edited during the exile, they're not really that far apart in time either.
Right. It's very interesting to, look at those and compare and try and uncover what these original intentions and thoughts were of the original writing.
Cindy Beaver: Yeah, definitely.
Carey Griffel: And of course we have the idea of sheep keeping and working the ground here, which stems directly from what Adam and Eve were supposed to be doing in the garden.
Cindy Beaver: Yeah, . You can see that Cain and Abel have been handed down the mandate from their parents and they are fulfilling the demand to take dominion over the earth. And they have 2 different ways of doing it. [00:19:00] It's interesting that there's always rivalry between sheepherders and farmers.
I'm thinking the Oklahoma movie even. I mean, that's the cows and the farmers, but anyway it's, there can be rivalry there, but also just the fact that they are fulfilling the mandate and then as we continue on in our reading, you'll see that they're even worshiping God. So they're continuing to maintain relationship with God outside of the garden.
Carey Griffel: Yeah. We tend to think that, you know, Adam and Eve were kicked out of the garden and God was kind of washing his hands of the situation and like, whatever you guys, you just go do your own thing. But that's not what we're seeing here. They wouldn't have known how to do any of this worship and sacrifice without relationship with God, without God instructing them here.
Cindy Beaver: Well, and God attends and he, looks [00:20:00] and he receives the offerings. So he didn't, he didn't abandon them at all. And they know him.
Carey Griffel: Yeah, let's go ahead and continue our reading then.
In the course of time, Cain brought to the Lord an offering of the fruit of the ground, and Abel also brought of the firstborn of his flock and of their fat portions. And the Lord had regard for Abel and his offering, but for Cain and his offering, he had no regard. So Cain was very angry, and his face fell.
Cindy Beaver: my Septuagint version said, Now this happened after a number of days. Cain brought some of the fruit of the earth as an offering for the Lord. And Abel himself also brought some of the firstborn of his sheep and some of their hard, fat parts. God looked upon Abel and upon his gifts, but he did not pay attention to Cain and upon his offerings.
He grieved [00:21:00] Cain very much, and he fell in face. The Lord God said to Cain, why have you become deeply grieved and why has your face fallen?
Carey Griffel: All right, so we're in the middle of a speech by the Lord here but this is about their offerings and a lot of people think, well, this seems unfair, right? It's like. Why did God care about Abel's offering, but he didn't care about Cain's? That, that just seems not just somehow.
Cindy Beaver: And I don't think it has anything to do with blood sacrifice, you know, or is preferable because we know in reading later on in Leviticus and the different temple rights that grains and fruits were allowed, but what I find here is that it just says that Cain brought some of the fruit of the earth.
Like, you know, it wasn't the first fruits. It wasn't the best. [00:22:00] It's just like, you know, he's like, oh, I got to do this thing. And so he grabbed a rotten banana and a couple of other things and off he went, you know, whereas Abel kind of shows him up and he's taking the, firstborn of his sheep and he's taking the best parts of the sacrifice sheep and the sacrifice itself isn't even mentioned, so that tells us too that, you know, it's not about the death of the animal. It's about what is offered to God and Abel is really offering the best that he has.
I was reading this book called Welcoming Gifts, Sacrifice in the Bible and Christian Life. The book is by Jeremy Davis, and it is really, really good about explaining how sacrifices or offerings, really, were intended to be meals. Where you [00:23:00] ate together and that it was about establishing covenant and relationship and maintaining that so here again is a super not only are they following the dominion mandate to do what they do, but they are working diligently. They're conscious of continuing to maintain relationship with God. Both Cain and Abel are doing this voluntarily. They're not being told what to do, but they do it, and they want to participate. It's just then when they start comparing the 2 gifts that, it kind of starts to go a little bit awry. And it again, I think it's I just look at the spotted banana on a tray is what I keep visualizing. I don't want to eat this, here, you can have it. Um, so that that's what, what a lot of commentators will talk about. [00:24:00] It's the, quality of the offering and maybe even the intention. It was more half hearted on Cain's side whereas it was super sincere and really, really important to Abel that he do the best that he can.
And it really results in Cain being torqued off because his younger brother is showing him up.
Carey Griffel: those are absolutely the perfect points to be bringing out here. And if you are thinking about this in terms of just checking the boxes... That seems to be what Cain is doing. Like, I just need to do this so fine. I will just do whatever. Here you go. Toss whatever he happens to have down on the altar, whereas with Abel, it's clearly thoughtful.
We use the word sacrifice and offering kind of interchangeably in English a [00:25:00] lot of times, and we don't really understand a real clear difference in between those two things. And we don't understand how the Bible uses those words either. So, that's a really big topic just in and of itself. But when you're talking about sacrifice and you're talking about an offering, overall, instead of... Appeasing the angry God, there's no sense that God needs to be appeased here. There's no sense that they're doing this sacrifice or these offerings because of what happened in the garden. Because this isn't even Adam and Eve who's doing it. It's their children. So, right off the bat, there is no hint that they even are doing this to cover sins, or to get back into God's good graces.
If that was the case, we'd be seeing Adam and Eve doing the sacrifice, and that's not actually what we see. We don't see Adam and Eve making [00:26:00] sacrifices, which... That's kind of interesting when you think about it.
Cindy Beaver: Right, and the word they really use here is offering, or at least in my translation and most of the translations that I see, it's an offering.
So it's, yeah, it's sacrificial in that they're giving up some of what they've worked, to produce, but it, it is not, at all intended to be something to absolve sin. It is all about relationship building and maintaining that, with their creator God, because they want to, they're not forced to do this.
Carey Griffel: and one of the things that people jump to about the blood sacrifice thing is that you tend to read the first few chapters of Genesis and you go, well, they're not even eating animals, so it couldn't possibly be. a fellowship meal, right? Because they're not eating animals.
Well, there's a lot to be said about that. And I actually haven't done a whole episode on this. And [00:27:00] I, I think I probably should
Cindy Beaver: I think they're eating right here. They're that this is a shared meal. Yeah. And, and they've got some of both. They've got, you know, Cain brought the, bread and veggies.
And Abel has provided the meat; now the fat hard parts, that's going to be the liver and the kidneys and things like that. But, you know, there's still the tenderloin and all those other parts that, they're going to be able toeat and eat for several days. , and it was normal in, the ancient sacrifice and participatory services, pagan as well as at the temple in Jerusalem, that that's what you did, unless it was a burnt sacrifice.
A burnt offering was a total give it away, but most of them were not. And they had banquet rooms. And, places where you could go to eat. So, there's nothing that indicates this is any different. And so we should assume that they're eating and that means that [00:28:00] they're eating meat. Otherwise, why does Abel herd sheep?
Except maybe for the wool, you know, but even previously it talks about God giving them skins to wear, which requires, you know, the killing of an animal. So, I'm kind of thinking that, no, that he's raising sheep for both the meat as well as the wool.
Carey Griffel: Yeah, I don't think there's any indication anywhere that animals were domesticated simply for their wool. it doesn't really make much sense that that would be the case. Because in a situation like that, you are using the entire animal. You're not letting things go to waste. And also, I think that's part of why it mentions the fat offerings, because those would have been the parts that would have been burnt as God's portion of the meal. And they would have eaten the rest of it. Yeah. Exactly.[00:29:00]
Yeah, but for those wondering about the whole eating of the animals, I, I will be getting into that later. So you'll just have to stay tuned.
All right. Let's go ahead and finish up the statement that God is, is saying to Cain here, starting in verse seven, it says, if you do well, will you not be accepted? And if you do not do well, sin is crouching at the door. Its desire is contrary to you, but you must rule over it.
Cindy Beaver: Now the Septuagint reading is extremely different.
So this will be a good conversation for us. But verse 7 in the Septuagint says, Have you not sinned? If you offer rightly, but do not divide rightly? Calm down. His recourse will be to you, and you will rule him.
Carey Griffel: Yep, that's very different.[00:30:00]
Cindy Beaver: And, you know, it almost goes to there was an, unfortunately, I don't have it right now, but there was in one of the readings that I had it hyperlinked me over to a proverb that talks about, you know, properly giving sacrifice and that, you know, the right man properly sacrifices. And so here it looks like he didn't properly divide his sacrifice. Cain didn't do something right, so he is in the wrong. In my version, it sounds like he's still, trying to get, even though he can see that Cain's getting mad, and all of that, he's like, calm down, just, you know, chill out, dude, you know, you didn't do it right, but it's okay.
You know, his recourse will be to you and you will rule him. To me, it's, it seems to be saying that you are still the elder brother. You're still in control. He hasn't [00:31:00] trumped you. But again, that's what the Greek is. And let me read, I have this other translation. This is from the Aramaic of the Peshita.
So this. Kind of comes from a targum and some of those things, but it says here, behold, if you do well, shall you not be accepted? And if you do not do well, sin lies at the door, you should return to your brother and he shall be subject to you. So, now we're talking about sin crouching at the door, but he's also getting this reassurance that settle down, go to your brother, you're still the elder brother, you still have preeminence.
Carey Griffel: Okay, so in the version you read first, the Septuagint, it seems as though the last part of this, the section that we read is talking about the [00:32:00] brothers. Yes. And how Cain can still be ruling over Abel because that's his rightful place as the older brother. Whereas in the version that I read, in the ESV, it's talking about sin and sin has something to do with this ruling.
But in this last one that you just read, it seems to kind of have both.
Cindy Beaver: Yes. Sin lies at the door, but then it also doesn't say anything about what that might mean. It just goes on to return to your brother and he will be subjected to you so that, you know, you're still "A Number One."
Carey Griffel: I still can't get over that the Septuagint tells him to calm down.
Cindy Beaver: Yeah, I think that's funny. Calm down, just chill. Yeah, I mean, can you see God saying that? Anyway, I do find it [00:33:00] interesting that here, we have... I mean, what this whole story is talking about is how the world is in a fallen state.
We started with Adam and Eve, and they made the wrong choice. And even though they were kind of coaxed into it by, you know, the deceiving serpent, nachash, but now here we have Cain. And it's starting to spread. God is warning him just like God warned Adam and Eve. Don't eat that tree. Now. He's like, look at your, your jealous here. Calm down. , you haven't lost it. You're okay, but if you don't calm down, sin is going to take over here. So he's giving him that warning. It's still it's a warning just like so both times. God is giving them a warning and then he leaves the choice up [00:34:00] to them. And unfortunately, both times, they fail to pass the test. Both sets of these individuals go down the wrong path.
Carey Griffel: I love what you're bringing out here because I think a lot of us read this and then we think, well, the problem was with the offering and Cain got angry and he should be making it right with God. But what that text is saying is, Nope, you got to go to your brother because you're actually got a problem with him first. And that's what needs to be resolved. And that's a fascinating angle that I think that's not brought out in most of our English translations. We're not thinking that. and so we're like, well, he just goes out and kills his brother. And that seems a little bit out of left field.
Cindy Beaver: Yeah. Like it's really extreme, but as we look at this and reinterpret it, all of a sudden we can kind of see how [00:35:00] it's getting there, you know, it's the, whole older and the younger it's the, the rivalry between the farmer and the shepherd. and then it's the God choosing one over the other, regardless of why it is.
And again, I think it's Abel's heart, his, and his intentions, but there's jealousy then because it's like, you showed me up, you know, and I'm just pissed and you can see brothers totally, or even sisters for that matter, or other siblings of, you know. I got my mom a coffee cup for Mother's Day and you went and got her a whole Mercedes, you know, good. You really made me feel great here, so that's kind of what's happening here. And so it's right and appropriate whatyou just said about God is redirecting Cain to chill out. Think about it. [00:36:00] It's okay, you're still the older one, you still got it, but sin is crouching there, temptation is, is there to overreact.
Carey Griffel: And let's, let's go ahead and just read a little bit more just because this is really going to tie into what we were just talking about , because right now, what's happened is something went wrong, and God isn't saying that what Cain did was, like, this is your sin and now you are fallen.
He's not cursed yet. God is giving him a chance to fix it and make it right.
Cindy Beaver: That's exactly what it is, is that he has an opportunity to stay on the path do the right thing, resolve your relationship with your brother.
Carey Griffel: So I'm going to read up till verse 12 here. In the ESV it says, Cain spoke to Abel his brother, and when they were in the field, [00:37:00] Cain rose up against his brother Abel and killed him.
Then the Lord said to Cain, Where is Abel your brother? He said, I do not know, am I my brother's keeper? And the Lord said, What have you done? The voice of your brother's blood is crying to me from the ground. And now you are cursed from the ground, which has opened its mouth to receive your brother's blood from your hand.
When you work the ground, it shall no longer yield to you its strength. You shall be a fugitive and a wanderer on the earth.
Cindy Beaver: And my version says here, And Cain said to Abel his brother, Let's walk through the field. And this happened while they were in the field. Cain rose against Abel, his brother, and he killed him. Then God said to Cain, Where is Abel, your brother? But he said, I don't know, I'm not my brother's guardian, am I? And God said, what have you done? The voice of your brother's blood is crying out to me [00:38:00] from the earth. Now accursed are you upon the earth, which has opened its mouth wide to receive the blood of your brother from your hand, because you will work the earth. It will not proceed to give its strength to you. You will moan and tremble upon the earth.
Carey Griffel: Wow, that's an interesting ending to that section in your version.
Cindy Beaver: Yeah, exactly. This is not necessarily my favorite, but it is definitely an intriguing one for us to have these conversations.
Carey Griffel: Definitely. , and this is what they would have been reading. At least some of them would have been reading in the time of Jesus.
So ...
Cindy Beaver: exactly, yes, so many people spoke Greek. That's why it was translated because they were losing the ability to speak Hebrew and you know, Paul and a lot of the disciples in the writings of the New Testament, they are actually quoting from the Septuagint version, not the Hebrew.
Carey Griffel: Yeah, and [00:39:00] we can see just from reading these short sections how very different they are.
And so, you know, we tend to get very focused and nuanced into the Bible says this, and the Bible says this, and the Bible says that. Well, here we have two things that are, they're Similar in scope, they're similar in their message, but there's some nuance that is quite different in both versions.
Cindy Beaver: In fact, one of the things that I've read about the Septuagint in that when they compare it to the Hebrew, like the Masoretic Hebrew, and there was definitely a different Original Hebrew source that the Septuagint used.
It is not the one that the Hebrew Bible shows currently. It has been lost to us. But we can definitely tell because of the way, I mean, sometimes there's more phrases. , some of the books of the Bible are longer or shorter than others because maybe a scribe skipped a row or [00:40:00] something like that. But they can definitely tell that, you know, it's mostly the same and, and, and again, don't, I don't question the integrity of it, what God got to us is what he needed us to have, but there's definitely differences and there were even different copies of the Septuagint and different variations because in studying about it, it's like the Ethiopic version has more books and some different phrases than the one that was used in Ephesus or the one that was used in Athens.
And so, again, we shouldn't be worried that there were different translations or different versions, just like we have. The ESV and the NIV and the RSV and, you know, all of these different things, they had different options as well and, and that's okay.
Carey Griffel: Yeah. The, the basic message of Scripture, it is all the same.
The focus is the character of God and we, can [00:41:00] kind of argue and talk about these different nuances and apparently it's okay to have different opinions because the Scriptures that Jesus had, there were different versions of that, and they seemed perfectly comfortable with that. So, we should be too, is my way of thinking.
Cindy Beaver: We'll even look at how we have four versions of the gospel.
Carey Griffel: Yeah, that's a great point, yeah. If we're trying to harmonize them, we're missing the point, I think.
Cindy Beaver: Yep. Yep, because then we're diluting it and, with the richness and the variety, we can have some of these conversations. And I mean, what we just brought out in our previous little bit about Cain and Abel and the sibling rivalry, we would not have gotten that by just reading from the ESV at all.
Carey Griffel: Yes, definitely. Yeah. It's like in the Septuagint, God says, calm down. You can still be the older [00:42:00] brother. It's okay. Just deal with it like you need to deal with it, and in the ESV it says Cain spoke to Abel his brother But it doesn't say what he said in the Septuagint It says let's walk through the field like he's just inviting him on a stroll and maybe he's gonna do what God told him to do and make things right with Abel, but that's not what happens.
Cindy Beaver: Something happened during that conversation and it fell apart.
One of the things that I found interesting as I was looking it's kind of in the passage just before what we read where it's sin is crouching at the door. What I found, and I, it was like, I wonder if there's anything in the, in DDD, the, demons and Divinities.
Carey Griffel: Yeah, the dictionary.
The Dictionary of Deities and Demons. Yeah.
Cindy Beaver: Yeah, in the Bible. And sure enough. And even in my cultural studies, Bible, it talks about there's a Mesopotamian demon, [00:43:00] Arabasu that lingers in the doorway, sin is there, portrayed as a demon doorway that's just crouching and waiting to leap onto Cain, and so it sure looks like, that Mesopotamian demon, which we talked about earlier, this has Mesopotamian overtones. So it's not surprising that we can also start seeing that some Mesopotamian demon is messing around at the opening of Cain's tent.
Carey Griffel: Right. Yeah. Yeah. we have so many parallels with this story and what happens in the garden.
And like what happens in the garden, the word sin is never actually used. We tend to think, oh, that's the first sin and conceptually speaking, it, is right. Sometimes you have the word and sometimes you just have the concept as a whole,
Cindy Beaver: Or that it's just considered the fall. It's not necessarily sin enters.
And if you look [00:44:00] in, I think it's Hebrews where it talks about the first sinner is Cain, you know, where it, this is the act where sin actually enters the world. Yes, there was a fall from grace, a fall from our, I don't want to call it our idyllic state, but the fall that caused us to lose access to Eden and God's presence in the divine council.
And now here we are outside of the garden and now sin has really entered into the picture.
Carey Griffel: and this connection with the demon, I've seen people see that and then they get really deep into, oh, this was specifically the demon that was attacking Cain, and people want to make this taxonomy of the spiritual realm, and I think that's a bit misguided.
But what we can do is look at this and say, there is spiritual reality behind what's going on [00:45:00] here on Earth. And that's something that we see throughout the entire Bible, it was just embedded in their context. They didn't see something that happened on earth and just think that's all that there was to it, that there was always something going on in this spiritual realm that mirrored what was going on on earth,
Cindy Beaver: and that's super evident in like the book of Daniel where you can see the prince of Persia fighting against them, you know, and we know that the Persians were warring clans and we know that Alexander, the prince of Greece that was coming, you know, well, Alexander came too, you know, so it was happening both in the heavenly realms, as well as on the physical earth, that these things are going on.
So it's not necessarily odd for us to think that there is some spiritual realm component that is being overlaid and viewed and [00:46:00] understood as occurring with this interaction and what's going on with Cain.
Carey Griffel: Because no matter what you think about this word, whether it's the demon or whether it's not.
Sin is acting as an active agent here...
Cindy Beaver: Yeah, it's an entity that has authority, you know, it's a noun, it is not a verb or anything like that. It has agency. It is doing something to influence.
Carey Griffel: And also we have the language of ruling, which harkens back to our dominion mandate. So not only are we supposed to rule and have dominion over the earth.
And then we had Eve, who was supposed to have dominion over the serpent. And now here we have Cain, who is supposed to have dominion over sin. So it's not prescribed that suddenly, oh, some sin is there, therefore it's obvious and necessary and there's no choice involved. [00:47:00] And that's why I like the fact that you brought the Septuagint to this discussion, because it really highlights that Look, even when something happens, you have a choice.
Something can be done.
Cindy Beaver: Yes. God always gives humans that agency and the right to choose. , and they have that option , and that there is always something and we've lost it and we need to regain it, the perspective of, both things are going on spiritually that we cannot necessarily view. Some people are gifted with that ability, but not me.
But that doesn't mean that I should not have it in my mind that it's not just this material world. There is another dimension or something there that beyond what I see, but it is influencing me and it can either help me Or it can lead [00:48:00] me to harm. And I always need to think of. You know choosing choose the right path.
That's what this lesson is all about of you have two paths Which one are you going to choose? Try to go towards God always trying to go to God. And even that has to do with the word repentance turn turn change your mind change your path If you're not going towards God, you're going away from God
Carey Griffel: Well said and now here we have the idea of the curse that once again shows up .
Cindy Beaver: Then we do get to the point where , the ground is cursed specifically against Cain, as opposed to in general. It's not all humanity. I find it interesting too, the voice of your brother's blood is crying out for me. It has opened its wide mouth. Now, there's in those Ugaritic stories and things where the ground is a big mouth, you know, death is just [00:49:00] waiting to swallow you up. And so here you see this ground, which does represent the underworld. This is what the nachash was going to eat the dust of.
Well, here's, his first serving, Abel, got swallowed up, his blood is gobbled up by the earth. It's hungry. It wants to eat. But it also tells God, it communicates with God that I got this lovely dinner.
Carey Griffel: Oh man, yeah, and, here we have blood mentioned where it's not mentioned at all during the offering portion of our story.
Cindy Beaver: No, that's right. This is the first time we've actually talked about blood and how it can cry out. And then you think about Revelation where the saints are under the altar. And what is it? Really? It's the blood from the saint's sacrifice. It's their blood is crying out to God. How long? You know, so this is interesting that in Genesis all the way the [00:50:00] thread goes all the way to revelation that blood will cry out asking for justification.
Carey Griffel: And it's important, it seems, that the blood is, going into the earth. This is another thing that you will read about in Leviticus. there's the idea that , the people were not supposed to be drinking blood. And the idea of blood is that this is where your life is within, is in your blood.
So if they killed an animal, they were supposed to actually pour the blood onto the ground. So that's hearkening back to the image that we have here of the blood being received by the ground. But in this sense, it's a judgment against Cain, whereas in other places, it's taking on a more nuanced meaning.
So, for those who are looking at these themes and reading Scripture through the eyes of biblical theology, which is taking the themes and ideas [00:51:00] of the context and looking at the way different authors used those terms, and used those themes, you can see those differences and actually tease out a lot of meaning from them.
Once you're seeing what the individual authors are doing with the same theme and the same ideas and imagery.
Cindy Beaver: Yeah, it's even mentioned, you know, that with Noah, when he gets off the boat, then they are given permission to eat meat, which obviously we've seen, they're already eating it here. But regardless, the stipulation was, do not eat the blood.
So let's talk about that last sentence. Verse 12, because mine was very, very different where it says , the earth will not proceed to give its strength to you. You will moan and tremble upon the earth. And what does the ESV say?
Carey Griffel: Verse 12 says when you work the ground, it shall no longer yield to you its strength.
You shall be a fugitive and a wanderer on [00:52:00] the earth.
Cindy Beaver: Yeah. Moan and tremble. I suppose you're gonna moan and tremble if you're a fugitive and a wanderer.
Carey Griffel: So in the ESV and the, versions we're used to reading, this is where we think he's a fugitive, and that tends to bring forth ideas of law and justice and people chasing you. whereas yours, it says he will moan and tremble upon the earth like he's falling down and not wandering in that case that's the imagery that's in my head when I read that.
Cindy Beaver: It's almost he's going to moan and tremble because he's hungry. He can't eat, you know, he's now cut off from his occupation.
So what is he going to do? And so you know, think about the unemployed and how they, you know, they do moan. They do tremble with hunger. And so maybe that's part of this is I'm [00:53:00] just looking at I'm unemployed. I can't stay here with my family. That's another thing is a family was everything in the ancient cultures. It was your identity. It wasn't like us now where, you know, individuality is so important. I mean, he is now cut off from everything that's familiar... from his home, from his heritage, his inheritance. Bye, no money for you or no goods for you. And now his occupation is gone. You know, even if he tries to raise wheat, it's all going to shrivel, it will not give its strength to you. So, he's going to be destitute and down the line, you know, and then upcoming verses, you know, it's like, that makes sense as to why he founded a city because he had to come up with a new occupation. And since he couldn't raise crops, he needed others that he needed to go into commercial business.[00:54:00]
So that he could make a living while others did the food production for him.
Carey Griffel: Mm hmm. Yeah, that's a great connection. Honestly, the Septuagint flows a little bit better in that version because you're right, if, the earth isn't doing what you want it to do in growing the crops, then you're going to be hungry and weak and you won't be doing anything.
Whereas. The version we tend to read it says the earth isn't going to yield the strength and you'll be fugitive and a wanderer which probably it means the same thing because if you're wandering then that means you're not growing anything but the Septuagint really brings out this nuance of the suffering that Cain is now going to be put through because of it.
It's not just that he's being chased. It's that he literally cannot really survive like this.
Cindy Beaver: I wonder too, this just came to me of how [00:55:00] Eve, you know, she was going to have pain in childbirth. Well, now here, moaning and trembling. Oh. What do you think? You know, it's... It is the same, you know, only, you know, up a level of, your delivery of whatever you do is, your birthing of whatever you try to attempt is going to be super hard labor.
Carey Griffel: Yeah, it's a fantastic point to bring up. And I mean, and this is what I'm trying to bring out in my curse series as well. When you are cursed, you are no longer fruitful. Whatever you're doing is cursed. Like, you are no longer able to be successful in the things that you would have been successful before. usually that's, you know, your children and food and... you know, health and that kind of thing. So.
Cindy Beaver: Absolutely. The next sentence here[00:56:00] , verse 13 in the Septuagint, Cain said to the Lord, my guilt is too great , for me to be forgiven. That's different than what yours is.
Carey Griffel: In the ESV, verse 13 says, Cain said to the Lord, my punishment is greater. Then I can bear.
Cindy Beaver: And in the Septuagint, it says Cain said to the Lord, my guilt is too great for me to be forgiven.
That's really interesting because in your version, it sounds like he's a whiner right in mine. It almost sounds like he is super depressed. I mean, he is now realized I've gone beyond the point. You can't even forgive me.
Carey Griffel: the ESV does have a footnote that says that punishment could also be translated as guilt.
So we kind of have that similar thing going on there. So we don't need to necessarily focus on [00:57:00] the difference in punishment versus guilt. , but there is kind of a nuance when we read those two words. When we read punishment, we're thinking of what God is doing, whereas when we read guilt, we're thinking of the aspect within Cain, like , his stance and relationship between himself and God
Cindy Beaver: In the, Peshitta translation that I referred to earlier, It says, my transgression is too great to be forgiven. So there, it's definitely his action of what he did, and he knows that it's a transgression.
Carey Griffel: Do you think that would connect to the sin language earlier in the chapter? transgression versus sin.
Because to us it's like we think of that as the same, kind of the same word. There's almost exact correspondence between those two words.
Cindy Beaver: Yeah, I'm not sure. I don't, this is a hard copy so I can't link it to, you know, [00:58:00] look at the...
Carey Griffel: Yeah, that would be interesting to find out. But, yeah, it makes you wonder is this Cain saying, I mean it is Cain directly telling God, look, you can't forgive me.
Like, is that the literal truth? Is, is that really what God would agree with? , it's like, nope, I will not ever forgive you, or is that just Cain suggesting that? I mean, personally, I think it's insightful that it's Cain who's bringing this up. Yeah. God doesn't say that. It's Cain who's saying that.
And how reliable is Cain at this point?
Cindy Beaver: Well, especially because earlier on, he was like, how am I, am I supposed to, I mean, he deliberately lies to God about, I don't know where Abel is. , how am I supposed to know where he is?
Carey Griffel: Yes, so Cain is not our reliable narrator here.
Cindy Beaver: No, no, although, you know, then [00:59:00] once he's, you know, called on it and it's like, what have you done?
We know your blood is calling, so I fully know what the heck you did. And then he turns around and my, transgression is it's too great to be forgiven. , nobody's gonna forgive me for a fratricide.
Carey Griffel: Well, and we can see, like, we're not gonna read any further here just yet, but in verse 15 it does, God gives him mercy.
He says, no, you're not gonna be killed. Yeah. So he makes sure that Cain isn't killed, and this is something I've thought about, and again, this is too deep of a topic, but after the flood, if somebody kills another human being, if somebody kills an imager of God, they are themselves to be killed. That doesn't happen here.
Cindy Beaver: No, even an animal, if they kill an animal, the animal is supposed to be stoned. But you're right. , for what, whatever reason God, [01:00:00] and it goes even with Adam and Eve. I mean, they, do wrong and he provides them clothing and he goes with them outside of the, you know, outside of Eden. Now here it's like, okay, you killed your brother.... in a way, if, the wording is from the Septuagint is more what he says of my guilt is too great for me to forgive it. I mean, he's actually acknowledging that and. repenting of his sin and that, you know, and so if we interpret this as a repentance of a confession, then you can see where God is saying, okay, I mean, if I just continue in a little bit, he's like, if you throw me out today, I'm going to be hidden from your face.
And I will be moaning and trembling on the earth and anyone who finds me will kill me. So, you know, that's where this is the result and God takes pity on him because he is expressing remorse. So that might be the case of, okay, you're not going [01:01:00] to die. Just being a wanderer fugitive is going to be bad enough. , I'll give you a sign of whatever that is, and then, people will know that I am protecting you. And it is God's protection, just like the clothing was providing protection. God is protecting this first family.
Carey Griffel: Yeah. I think we maybe have hit a nail on the head here personally, because we want to see like the language of forgiveness. We want the text to say, I'm being merciful to you, or whatever. It's not that explicit. It shows what is going on. I personally feel that the reason Adam and Eve didn't die like they were said to have supposedly died when they ate from the tree, was because God Had mercy on them, and it seems like this is strengthening that position because these are parallel accounts.
We should be reading them together [01:02:00] as the same kind of thing going on. So if they had mercy, Cain is also getting mercy here. And , that's a really cool thing to notice because Cain is such a hated figure in Scripture. Like, we read this story and we just hate on Cain. We just pile on the hate to Cain because he did this. He's the first murderer and he's just such a terrible human being but God gave him Mercy, that's amazing. We have a hard time dealing with that because we don't want murderers to Have mercy shown to them and yet that's what's happening here. Now, they're still having consequences. He's still cursed. The curse was not removed.
Cindy Beaver: he would never again be able to be a farmer or, you know, raise crops that life is over. , he has to carve his way in a different way. , the other thing is what I find interesting then is [01:03:00] where we talked earlier on in this episode about Cain representing Northern Israel. God does forgive northern Israel and , by them being diffused into the nations. And then at Pentecost and all of that, the nations are called back, they have been forgiven. They have been called back and given that mercy. So this also echoes right through to what God is doing even today.
Carey Griffel: I love that. Yeah. See, you really have to be digging into the themes in order to see this. You cannot read the text on a surface level and just pick this stuff out. I mean, well, I mean you can because you get to Jesus and you see it all coming together there, right?
That's... Why Jesus is the lens and why so many people just kind of go I don't know what to do with the Old Testament because we're not sure how to fit that into the lens of Jesus [01:04:00] But it all does fit it all comes back to what God is doing throughout history and specifically in Christ right and that just echoes right into our own lives like think about how much We struggle with our sins, we want Christ to come, we want the Spirit to be in us, and then, boom, suddenly, we're perfect, we don't sin anymore.
That's not what happens in our lives, so we still struggle. And yet, here we have God coming and giving us mercy each and every time. Just, that's so powerful. I, I don't know how to even express that in my own life. Like, how, how are you grateful for that? the only way you can do it is just... Live your life to God and in every way you can.
Cindy Beaver: And love God and love others and share that love. , that's what he wants us to do. And that is how we say, thank you. Yes.
Carey Griffel: Yes. Amazing. [01:05:00] Oh, thank you so much for joining me today, Cindy. This was an awesome conversation.
Cindy Beaver: Oh, I loved it. And please feel free to invite me back. I'd love to have another conversation with you.
Carey Griffel: Definitely, for sure.
Alright, well, I want to thank everyone for joining us for this episode. I hope you enjoyed it as much as Cindy and I certainly did.
Thank you for listening to this episode, and if you found value in it, I would appreciate it if you would share it with others that you think might find this of interest, whether personally sharing it one on one, or sharing it within a social media group, or however it is that you can share it with others who might also enjoy it. That would be beneficial to me and hopefully to them as well.
As always, you can contact me at genesismarksthespot@gmail. com. You can find my website [01:06:00] at genesismarksthespot.com. And you can find me on Facebook and Instagram as well. On Facebook, I actually have my own discussion group where you can come and chat about this and other topics. So, I hope to hear from you, and as always, I hope you all have a blessed week, and we'll see you later.
